Sean Duffy from The Wise Group on the justice system and relational mentoring
In this episode of the Fit for Purpose podcast, Rt Hon Justine Greening speaks with Sean Duffy, CEO of the Wise Group, about the organisation's impactful work over the past year. They discuss the importance of relational mentoring, the challenges faced by individuals in the justice system, and the need for holistic support to break down barriers to employment. The conversation highlights the significance of data in demonstrating social impact and the collaborative efforts required to address issues like fuel poverty. Duffy emphasises the necessity of understanding individual needs and the power of community engagement in driving meaningful change.
Transcript
Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:01.956)
Welcome to this latest Fit for Purpose podcast. We've got a great podcast ahead of us today because it's coming back to the Wise Group and Sean Duffy, the chief executive of the Wise Group who we spoke to last year and really having a forward look on how that year's gone. But also I think looking at some of the really important work that the Wise Group is doing through its commission on breaking down barriers through employment opportunities. Sean, great to have you back on the podcast.
Sean Duffy (00:31.011)
Thank you.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:31.798)
Let's start with that year that's just happened. Obviously a lot has happened politically, but for the Wise Group, know, obviously the work that you do has never mattered more. It might be worth just telling people a little bit about what the Wise Group does in the first place, but then yes, the past year that you've had.
Sean Duffy (00:49.164)
Yeah, it's lovely to see you again, Justine, and it's been a very busy year. I think, you know, I reflect on...
Sean Duffy (01:00.266)
always busy at the Wise Group when society is at its most needful and that's something that's kind of very hard to celebrate when we're busy is because society is in a pretty desperate shape. So we're very busy at the moment, we have been for the last year. We continue to focus on our three main areas which is around about energy services which is supporting people in fuel poverty, employability and skills.
really focusing on those most distanced from the labour market and supporting people's journey from the justice system across the UK. all three, very topical over the last 12 months. We've supported over 85 ,000 households, which is an incredible amount of distress, if you like.
across those three areas. We've really upped our game in terms of focusing more on data and evidence, and evidence of our impact and demonstrating the value for money for society in terms of social impact and the work that we do. We've certainly focused more about being more ambitious about the employment journeys of those coming out of the justice system and trying to
Rt Hon Justine Greening (02:24.462)
Mm
Sean Duffy (02:26.092)
really have a positive impact on that revolving door that we're seeing, know, and is so topical in the news at the moment.
And where we've seen our social impact work really come to evidence in the last year is recently we've published a few things. Most recently in Scotland we did a piece of relational mentoring work across 15 months and we've just demonstrated that we've generated 50 million pounds worth of social impact using treasury validated evaluatory mechanisms, which is great.
And I think given where both governments are just now, that's what they're looking for. They're looking for where are they going to get to impact for the money they're investing in services that support citizens. So it's... Yes.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (03:15.032)
And that relational mentoring work, Sean, it's just worth explaining to people how that works and in the sense why it's such an important part of what the Wise Group does.
Sean Duffy (03:25.678)
Yeah, I suppose it's primarily focused around about the kind of well -trodden phrase of place -based support. And it's really important because it brings that into kind of really stark focus. It's around about 15 identified needs because what you can see is that households in distress are all pretty unique. They'll have a mix and match of different variables.
that are associated with the multifaceted nature of poverty. So what our teams do across the UK is they, in effect, can socially diagnose each situation that they find themselves in supporting households. That can be mental wellbeing, can be financial literacy, can be employability, skills, poverty, disability, there's a number of things. And it actually speaks back to something that we've heard...
politicians mentioned in the last few months is about holistic support. That's what it looks like. It's easy to say, it's difficult to do. What it's doing is it's filling the gap that's been left by single issue policy thinking. Where previously it either trade -off, would either do approach A or approach B. What we're doing is we're doing what's required on the ground at the time. And that's where we're seeing the...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:36.036)
Mm
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:42.67)
Mm
Sean Duffy (04:48.708)
the significant impact and demonstrable value for money through our services.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:54.082)
And so that now, as you say, has never mattered more. And also the insights from the data that you get on this is really crucially important to government. And I guess, as you said, particularly around the justice system at the moment and the need for people to be coming out of the justice system sooner than was planned.
that level of support never mattering more than it does now. And in a sense that tailored support being really crucial.
Sean Duffy (05:25.868)
Yeah, well absolutely and you know if I look at the the level of the volume of work that we've done in this area and we continue to do in this area, this year we will support
somewhere around 12 ,000 people out of the justice system across the UK. Now that's a significant, when you consider that at any one point in time between Scotland and England you've between, know, about 95, 96 ,000 people incarcerated. You know, that's a significant portion of that in terms of the journey. And what you're doing is you're looking at, you know, elements of accommodation, mental health, substance dependency, financial literacy.
skills, employment. There are so many different barriers to a sustainable journey from the justice system that have to be supported, addressed, navigated. know, mean, what we have is we have set of...
established systems that are very, very complex to navigate. And if you're at your least well -resourced, which most people leaving the justice system are, then their opportunity to navigate it by themselves is pretty slim. where we find ourselves now, in particular with early release, that's why it's so important that we support people correctly within the early release program.
Also, looking at remand. Remand is a big challenge in the UK. And if you think about remand, we've really got people experiencing all the detrimental effects of the justice system without any support, because you don't get the same level of support on remand as you do if you're there under conviction. So there's a number of, I'm going to call them nuances, in the justice system that
Sean Duffy (07:23.726)
hugely exacerbate the impact of it on individuals that we're trying to mitigate, let's say, at the moment.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:33.08)
And I think it's probably fair to say I met some of the Wise Group employees who work in the justice system, supporting offenders and helping them get prepared for the life when they come out. I think it's some of the most basic things, even getting a bank account set up were some of the points that were raised. And I think for MPs who were at that event.
Sean Duffy (07:49.676)
Yep. Yeah.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:58.539)
It's quite shocking to hear that, you know, in a sense there is a complexity around helping people get their lives on track, but some of it is actually just very practical support, isn't it?
Sean Duffy (08:10.082)
Yeah, absolutely. I think in my almost seven years, I've the privilege of doing this job. It's most often the common sense things that present the biggest barrier. And it tends to shock people, Justine, when you you outline it to them, because it's almost unbelievable. know, getting someone on Universal Credit when they're leaving the
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:24.793)
Mm
Sean Duffy (08:40.664)
the justice system is difficult because there is not universal access to technology and you have to do your universal credit application online. And then it's a three -day waiting list. You don't have a bank account, you don't maybe not have an address to have your bank account again. So there are a number of dependencies there that for you and I are straightforward.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:52.62)
Mm -hmm.
Sean Duffy (09:11.084)
These people are in significant barriers to sustainability. And that's what I mean about the navigation of it. You'll get an accommodation. You may leave prison with a prescription for, as an example, for methadone, which is a one week prescription, but you're going to a doctor's waiting list that's got five weeks. There are simple things that when you look at it, the cards are stacked against you.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:33.198)
Mm -hmm.
Sean Duffy (09:40.686)
in a way so it's trying to mitigate those and navigate those common sense things and those are the types of things that we need to take care of before we even approach the subject of building confidence, skills, route to employment, a route to sustainability.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:59.182)
Mm -hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:04.25)
And so essentially, you know, there's so many practical challenges, but then behind that, and this was the event yesterday that we held in parliament with WISE on the commission that we've been running really for the past year, I guess, isn't it, Sean, breaking down barriers to employment opportunities and starting to bring together, I think in the end, was something like 100 different stakeholder groups.
Sean Duffy (10:21.144)
Yep, yep.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:33.882)
to really sit down across these different areas around skills, around fuel poverty, and if you like housing, particularly around the justice system, to really start working through what those basic recommendations are that were in the report that was launched yesterday. And I think from my perspective, that work matters because actually what it shows is there are solutions out there and actually they're not necessarily that complex, but they do really, really matter.
But it'd be really good to get your reflections, Sean, on that work, because from my perspective, I think it's come at exactly the right moment for a new government looking at what solutions might be.
Sean Duffy (11:13.132)
Yeah, think, you know, the breaking down barriers piece of work, you know, I'm hugely proud of. I think, you know, between the Purpose Coalition and the Wise Group and their partners, it's really laid out quite a straightforward practical roadmap of what the current governments could do to have a material impact in people's lives quite quickly. You know, we're not, in most cases, we're not looking at policy. We're looking at appetite.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (11:40.186)
Mm
Sean Duffy (11:42.478)
which is really interesting. The breaking down barriers speaks to what our mantra is actually because you and I have talked before about the single policy approach and where it lacks efficacy now and we use this word of it needs to be and not or and to give a practical example the country's been through a few years of direct cash support provision.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (12:11.14)
Mm -hmm.
Sean Duffy (12:13.13)
And clearly that's not a sustainable approach. And what we're doing through that is in some ways, Lord Bird said about it's expensive keeping people in poverty. In some ways what we're doing is we're maintaining people in their current state. We're not changing their state because we're just giving, we're providing support that's needed but only soothing the situation. It's not changing the situation. So cash in itself can stabilise a situation.
It's the additional support like relational mentoring that starts to change the trajectory of that household and the people in that household's lives. So that's why I'm so passionate about this report because it speaks to the multifaceted nature of poverty and what we need to do collectively to start to address it. And it goes far beyond cash.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:06.562)
And I think that was the message really from yesterday's event. I think to some extent, surprised a number of the MPs who were there, you know, in a sense, the resourcing does matter. But I think one of those key messages was actually, this is about how the system works together. And it's about that, I think what I would call that last mile policy approach, isn't it? It's the fact that you can have all these siloed departments, but it's in practice, the impact it makes.
is really determined by to what extent you can have that holistic approach with someone in their life that really takes their barriers away, not just an average person's barriers, but the actual barriers that they've got. Because unless you're able to do that, and that's why the relational mentoring is so important, you can have all the projects in the world, but they'll be piecemeal and they won't really make a difference in people's lives.
Sean Duffy (13:58.744)
Yeah, and I think you've said that before about the last mile and the last mile is almost always the most difficult. But it's the most impactful if you get it right. That's the thing and where our teams and colleagues across the UK work at their most impactful as in that last mile.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:06.319)
He
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:10.542)
Mmm.
Sean Duffy (14:23.648)
And it's when you bring the multifaceted nature of the support together, that's when it has the most impact, because it begins to compound. You get compound impact in. Because as I say, it's not just cash. It's cash and, you know, and that may be cash and employability support, it may be cash and mental health support, it may be cash and both skills support. Fuel poverty, fuel, but you know.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:30.255)
Mm -hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:41.679)
Hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:50.842)
Thank
Sean Duffy (14:52.462)
You mentioned the North East earlier on. We've got a huge amount of insight in the North East at the moment and there's a significant gap in fuel poverty support in the North East of England. That is one of the most impactful place -based support mechanisms that you can put in place because it has such an impact on households across the UK.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:03.194)
Mm
Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:15.679)
Tell us a little bit about that work in the North East. How have you structured it? Who are you working with and through? There's, from my sense, a real ecosystem that you've helped build, help people who are listening to this a little bit more.
Sean Duffy (15:27.03)
Yeah.
Sean Duffy (15:30.478)
Well, we're working with the new combined authority, which is great. And really what we're focused on is economically and actively in the North East. It's household poverty and child poverty. it's that. The work that we're doing with the combined authority will generate an excess of 20 million pounds worth of social value for the North East of England. And that's effectively what they've invested in.
And I think there's a bit of a terminology here. I keep challenging the public sector lexicon and saying it's not spend, it's investment. If you look at it as investment, then you have to look for the return from that investment. Whereas you look at it spend, it's just gone until the next thing you have to spend again.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (16:09.22)
Mm
Rt Hon Justine Greening (16:17.902)
Yeah. And also, another impact, as I know from that is, end up managing it down. If it's a cost, then the objective is to get it as low as possible. if it's an investment, then it is a really different ball game around, well, which gives you the best return. If I've got one more pound, where do I put it? It's entirely different discussion around prioritisation.
Sean Duffy (16:25.302)
Yes. Yes.
Sean Duffy (16:37.666)
Yes.
Sean Duffy (16:41.164)
Yeah, and it's incredible how that change in mindset changes the conversations that you have and then those conversations, those lead to different approaches. know, so the very fact that we're talking about economically inactive, the connection between household poverty and child poverty and to support the mayor's, Kim McGuinness' approach up there in terms of the new child poverty unit, this slots straight in alongside that. There's a real cohesion about the combined authorities thinking in the North East. They're very clear about
where they're going to get the best return for their investment. They're very clear about the societal challenges that they're facing, and that's where they're investing in. So, you know, we've got a number of things at play up there. One, mentioned the economically inactive programme support, but we're also doing work around the justice system up there in relation to support in the major prisons up there, Cleveland, Durham.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:13.05)
Mm
Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:34.172)
Mm
Sean Duffy (17:40.154)
etc. we're beginning to bring that all together. And what's interesting is, MOJ are doing the justice work through the Growth Prosperity Fund. We're doing that stuff with the combined authority. And we're the glue that's bringing it together and saying, OK, these are the same households. These are the same people. So let's make sure we look at them as such. And one of the biggest gaps that our insight has identified is that there is pretty much a dearth of
fuel poverty work in that and what we'll be doing is we'll be speaking to some of our partners in The Purpose Coalition about how we can maybe plug that gap and take that forward.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:17.794)
And tell us how you got that data. mean, you mentioned earlier that you've really started to harvest a lot more of the data insights. Where's it coming from? And in a sense, how have you reached that conclusion on fuel?
Sean Duffy (18:29.784)
Well, we've got a very wide and deep partner network. And we spend a lot of time talking to our households, talking to our referral partners, interviewing them, gathering the data from them, tracking their journeys, mapping at an identified need level what each household looks like, looking at the geography of them. And then what we effectively do is we have proxies in terms of the social impact and in terms of different movements.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:49.882)
You
Sean Duffy (18:58.08)
and those proxies have been validated by HM Treasury. So we then map the change in circumstances against the proxies and that starts to give us a social value impact. What we've done to support that is we're developing a social impact calculator and we've actually created a social impact accountant, which I know you'll love. know, this is, you know, determined that we will
Rt Hon Justine Greening (19:22.02)
Mm -hmm.
Sean Duffy (19:28.792)
set the benchmark in relation to evidential work and value for money and be able to demonstrate it so that it's about, you're then talking about investment, not spend.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (19:39.278)
Yeah. And what also interests me about this is, as you said, you're the glue in a sense, pulling this work together, but even on the grants that are funded by the Shared Prosperity Fund through the mayor's office, tell us a little bit about how you build that more civil society community ecosystem. Because actually I met some of those people who were part of it yesterday.
And they really do drive the work on the ground, don't they, alongside you?
Sean Duffy (20:11.096)
They do. know, one of the things that we benefit from is, I suppose, I think I refer to it as cultural productivity. And that there's a discretionary effort around about our colleagues because of the work that they do and because of the impact that they have in the communities that they are connected to. So that place -based approach, it's not people coming in from outside, it's people from inside.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (20:22.5)
Mm
Sean Duffy (20:40.62)
working inside. And that's hugely powerful. So there's an emotional commitment between, and there's an emotional bond between our colleagues.
Sean Duffy (20:54.2)
colleagues at the combined authority and then the overall kind of suppose the political infrastructure that surrounds that to do the best for I suppose the societal cohorts that we're trying to help. So it's more than a job. know and that I suppose one of the challenges that it creates for us is we've got to watch our colleagues well -being because they are so committed to what they're doing and you'll have seen that yesterday.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:21.112)
And how do you do that? I mean, it was one of the points that came out was just how intense even doing the relational mentoring work can be. Just the effort that goes into maintaining those partnerships and being the glue is actually quite significant for you as an organization. I felt as someone who's been in government that often this, this question of partnership is slightly glossed over as if, you know, it's a bit sort of vague and airy -fairy and
you know, almost it's not valued. In my experience, actually being able to work in strategic partnerships is often the difference between success and failure. It's the difference between holistic and piecemeal. And it's the difference between no return and making a difference that really transforms someone's life actually.
Sean Duffy (22:14.872)
Yeah, you know, you're so right because you you mentioned relational mentoring at the start and we made a commitment as an organisation that relational mentoring is more than just a programme, it's an approach and it's an approach that we adopt with each other, with the people we support and with the partners we work with. So we make sure that whomever we are engaged with, they get what they need from that engagement. And what that does is it builds
built strong relationships, built strong authentic relationships where people are aligned behind and towards the same objective because what I've seen certainly in my time, my experience both here and in the private sector is most collaborations fail because of a lack of understanding of what the shared objective is. So you end up with collaborative inertia rather than collaborative advantage and because of the way
Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:06.457)
Mm -hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:10.884)
Mm
Sean Duffy (23:13.826)
Genuinely because of the way that we approach it, because of that equitable way, understanding what each relationship needs, you make sure that each relationship, each engagement has an advantageous outcome as a result of it.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:26.21)
Mm -hmm. And so there's time and work that you put in to support your relational mentors, but also bringing together some of those community partners so that they can meet one another and, I guess, share best practices. Is that fair to say?
Sean Duffy (23:42.446)
Absolutely, you know, think that we'll never be done making our collaborative approach better.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:47.844)
Thank
Sean Duffy (23:55.79)
Each relationship develops, evolves, needs something more. you know, think one of the things that challenges us is to stay on top of, I suppose, the pulse of what the societies that we take care of require. You know, and I think what our partners get from us is they get an insight that they don't necessarily get from reports or surveys. get, you know, this is real life.
on the ground at scale and say in terms of what does vulnerability really look like. One of the great examples is what we did with the utility companies where we started showing them what vulnerability truly looked like. What fuel poverty tasted like, sounded like, smelled like, felt like. Not just what the algorithmic or arithmetic calculation of it was. Because once you know it, once you understand that at its granular level,
you can start to understand what you have to do to alleviate it. And that's why at an arithmetic level, if you only understand it there, then your first answer is cash. When it's most often far, far deeper than that.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (25:07.608)
Yeah, and I think that was one of the interesting recommendations in the commission report that came out yesterday was making energy companies much more responsible for that holistic, for triggering, if you like, that holistic work that a Wise Group does, for example, to tackle fuel poverty. And I think you're right that across The Purpose Coalition
there's some huge opportunities really to mobilise the business that are part of that. They're in this same space that in a sense have those very same people as customers who the Wise Group is really working hard to support. And I think in bringing you all together, it does give us literally a purpose coalition group, the ability to say, how are we going to respond to what's in the commission's report? And I think that that is exactly what will happen.
Now she's fantastic.
Sean Duffy (26:02.114)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more because, you know, we can't wait on others to do it. You know, sometimes groups come together and they create outcomes and then they expect someone else to go and do it. And I think that what we have within our gift is the ability and the motivation to, between us, do some of it under our own steam. almost, I think the, you know,
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:17.434)
Mm
Sean Duffy (26:31.414)
If we do others will follow. One of the things that we've certainly seen from the work that we've done is the level of interest you generate and the gentle and elegant thought -provoking conversations that you create. I mentioned the single issue policy to multifaceted nature of poverty. We've got to put some substance to it about some of this.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:33.38)
Mm -hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:48.248)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Sean Duffy (26:59.99)
some of the rhetoric that we're hearing around about this. And that's where that insight that you mentioned comes in. When people say, well, what place -based support look like? We can actually demonstrate it and show it. And then we can show what the impact of place -based support looks like at a public purse level.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:02.49)
Mm
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:15.424)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. And it can all come together. And I guess my final question, well, final two questions in a way is, well, the first one is, do you think anyone can, in a sense, get better at being effectively a relational mentor? Because we all have relationships. I was really interested that you said,
you know, whoever that relationship is with for why is that's how you approach it. Is this kind of holistic approach something that we should be all thinking about? Well, how do I become more of a relational mentor?
Sean Duffy (27:52.108)
I this is maybe going to sound bit prophetic, yes. what it really, I suppose that kind of well -chorded phrase of we need to listen to understand more than listen to reply. And one of the basic principles is you need to hear what's required. And in the consumer world, you would never design any product without speaking to your customers.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:56.654)
You just
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:06.585)
Mm -hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:21.518)
Yeah, exactly.
Sean Duffy (28:22.766)
That's no different in any walk of life, but yet it seems to be once you take consumerism out of it and you start going into it.
social policy, seems to be not the case, or much less the case, maybe let's say. certainly the ambition and approach I know for all of our relational mentors is to understand by listening and engaging what each circumstance requires and using their professional expertise to do that. And in each relationship, I think is similar to that.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:37.103)
Yeah.
Sean Duffy (29:03.785)
to engage you have to listen.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:06.063)
Mm
Sean Duffy (29:07.36)
And by listening you get collaborative advantage, not collaborative inertia.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:13.624)
And so if you were giving, so my final question almost is, we met a number of the MPs, obviously it's a brand new parliament now, brand new government, five years ahead of it. We launched our commission work yesterday. It was great to get so much engagement. If you've got one message almost for that new parliament, maybe that new government that you think can really help them drive impact on the ground in a positive way.
What would it be, Sean? What would you say to them?
Sean Duffy (29:47.032)
you've got a real opportunity to deploy fresh thinking. We hear lot about, understandably we hear a lot about the fiscal position of the country and we're hung up on
what money is available. we seem to think that talking about this always requires additional money. We just need to use our money differently. I'm happy to, I know we've got lots of follow up from our meeting yesterday, I think we had about 25, 30 MPs there. I'm happy to sit down with every and any MP to take them through what this looks like in their constituency. You and I have talked about it before.
We have a recognised, validated HM Treasury approach to demonstrating this. We need to understand what each area needs and we're willing and able and motivated to work with MPs and their constituency workers to understand what does your area need and actually start to design and come up with approaches that will begin to move the...
materially move the social dial in their areas.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (31:06.948)
So I think if I was paraphrasing that, I would say the message is that the solutions are out there. They need to be tailored. But in the end, we already actually know how to shift the dial. It's just a question of going on what we've already been doing and what a group like the Wise Group does. Sean, it's been brilliant having you on the podcast again. Thanks so much for the time. I know, as you say, how busy it is for everyone.
And it's brilliant having you part of The Purpose Coalition. I think you bring a really unique insight actually on that last mile to a lot of particularly businesses that are thinking about what their role is, what their responsibility is, but not necessarily always 100 % sure on how to deliver on that. And I think being able to draw on that expertise that you bring that experience as well.
I think is really important for almost a wider Britain being able to have the impact it wants, not just a new government that's there. So Sean, thanks for the time today. I'm looking forward to the next podcast and also looking forward to, you know, the next steps on the commission too. It was great to get the outcomes launched yesterday. But as you say, a long way to go, but a lot of solutions to draw and so Sean, thanks a lot.
Sean Duffy (32:26.776)
Thank you very much, Justine. Lovely to see you again.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (32:29.39)
Good to see you.
