Prof Phil Vickerman on Liverpool John Moores University's commitment to the student experience

In this conversation, Rt Hon Justine Greening speaks with Professor Phil Vickerman, Pro Vice Chancellor of Liverpool John Moores University, about the university's commitment to student experience, inclusivity, and community engagement. Phil shares his personal journey into academia, emphasising the importance of personalised learning and support for students from diverse backgrounds. The discussion also covers the university's collaborative efforts with the Liverpool City Region to enhance educational opportunities and workforce development, highlighting the role of higher education in addressing societal challenges.

Transcript:

Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:01.474)

Welcome to this latest Leading with Purpose podcast. I'm delighted this week to have Professor Phil Vickerman with me. He's Pro Vice Chancellor of Liverpool John Moores University and looking particularly after student experience. This is a university we're going to hear a lot more about in the podcast, but it's a really crucial university for Liverpool, not least for some of the students and the supply of talent it produces for.

local public services like health and all sorts of other things as well. So looking forward to the podcast today. Phil, thanks so much for joining us. I mean, perhaps tell us a little bit more about Liverpool John Moores University, the students and you know what your role as Pro Vice Chancellor looking after student experience means that you actually do.

Phil Vickerman (00:52.239)

Thanks very much Justine, it's great to be here. Yeah, in terms of Liverpool John Moores University, the university dates back over 200 years, originally from the Liverpool Mechanics Institute. So has been part of the city of Liverpool for many years. I think Liverpool John Moores University,

is a really dynamic forward-thinking institution and that's not something new. I think that's really been sort of embedded in the university. Obviously the city is known for its rich history, its innovation and also importantly its inclusivity. For me, LJMU absolutely prides itself on being accessible, welcoming students from diverse

backgrounds that's absolutely at the core of our institution that includes first generation university students, international students, mature students, care leavers and for a long time we've had a really strong commitment to social mobility supporting students from a wide range of disadvantaged backgrounds.

to enter into higher education, but not just enter into higher education, critically succeed and then go on into their future careers and lives. think one of the things about LJMU that really stands out for me is nearly half, 46 % of our students are from indices of multiple deprivation, Q1 and Q2. So they are the most

deprived characteristics. Fundamentally what we need to do there is focus on our widening participation, our financial aid, our student support, and also our community engagement and a lot of the things that we do as a university around social mobility and not only raising aspiration but importantly attainment.

Phil Vickerman (03:16.609)

is working with our communities and working in partnership with our communities. It's not just something that we do in isolation on our own. Partnership is absolutely critical to success. And maybe just finish with our four university values, which really, for me, speak to our mission. Student focused, you'd expect me to say that as a university.

We are inclusive at our core. Community. But the most important one and maybe the distinguishing one is that we are courageous. And we're prepared right from senior leadership, right throughout the organisation to have those courageous conversations, some of those really difficult conversations sometimes that hold us all to account. But importantly, hopefully start to push the barriers.

and challenge maybe some of the inequality that we see in society but also particularly in education.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:22.68)

So I think it's great to get that sense of what the university is doing and I think also interesting just how embedded you are now with that wider community, recognising that you're not just dealing with students actually, if you really want to improve their lives you've got to deal with that whole person. And I know it's something you very personally care about as well, Phil. Tell us a little bit about your own journey in a sense, like how you end up...

doing this kind of a role. Did you plan to go into academia or was it a sort of bit more of a roundabout route as we often have in our careers?

Phil Vickerman (04:57.423)

I didn't plan to go into academia and I think one of the things I found probably the most powerful sometimes conversations that I've had with students but also know staff in our university is talking a little bit about my journey. at 16, Born in Yorkshire. At 16

Rt Hon Justine Greening (05:19.042)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (05:25.359)

failed all my GCSEs and my parents encouraged, you know, wanted me to stay on at school for another year. I did. I passed one GCSE. So, you know, again, you know, for all sorts of reasons, school just didn't seem to really fit for me. I think

Rt Hon Justine Greening (05:48.888)

Did you just not like the exams or was it a bit that you just didn't particularly think education was the route for you in your life?

Phil Vickerman (05:58.831)

I think for me it was partly assessment and at the time exams was the main to the default but also the way that maybe I learned or I wanted to sort of explore things didn't really work for me. So when I got to 17, 18, you know I...

Rt Hon Justine Greening (06:06.893)

Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (06:18.68)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (06:27.563)

I was debating what am going to do, what am I going to do, am I going go into work, am I? And in the end, I decided that I was going to go to college. And my college experience absolutely transformed my education. within six months of me failing exams, I was doing resits and passing them.

And some of that for me was down to fantastic teachers, fantastic lecturers that, you know, recognised I needed to learn and develop in another way. Also, the key to success.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:08.046)

Mm-hmm. What was the key to success then, Phil? It sounds like something just clicked almost.

Phil Vickerman (07:15.137)

It was key to success was actually having conversations relating some of the learning to my own personal experiences or location I was in and it just clicked and it made sense. But also the environment, beyond the sort of formal classroom, this is something I'll talk about in terms of my

Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:25.102)

Mm-hmm

Phil Vickerman (07:42.959)

PVC student experience role. It was also about how I was supported as a learner. So, you know, it was about the sort of sense of wellbeing and belonging and the wider community outside of lectures. It was about some of the support services that were there as well. So all of those things in totality for me really started to click.

and made such a difference. And I think the sort of personalised learning, individual, you know, recognising me as an individual and what I needed was the thing that, you know, was an absolute success.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:27.106)

Was there a bit about it that was, because they did that, they sort of bought into you as you were, and as a result, they kind of made these commitments and you thought, okay, it's a two-way thing here, like we're in it together and I am gonna try my best now.

Phil Vickerman (08:33.763)

Yes.

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (08:42.255)

Absolutely, absolutely. I think that was it. My school was fine, my teachers was fine. They've got big classes, they'll be able to teach him. But yes, someone that really bought in with me, I think was absolutely critical. And from that moment on, it really catapulted my...

Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:02.371)

Mm.

Phil Vickerman (09:10.127)

my passion for education, you know, I did a degree, did a master's, did a doctorate. Eventually, you know, it was recognized with a national teaching fellowship through Advanced HE, you know, a whole sort of journey. And when I actually look back on some of those things, I think some of that drive actually was to prove to myself that I could do some of these things. It was important to sort of

Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:22.523)

huh.

sleep.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:37.112)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (09:39.855)

help and support, well not support but help and I suppose honour my tutors that had supported me to sort of learn and develop but I felt a real sort of drive you know to prove to myself more than anything else that I could do this.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:50.222)

and

Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:59.822)

So almost having had that, as it were, difficult start, you then really thought, I wonder how far I can go. And actually, I should show that I can go as far as anyone. Where did you focus when it came to a degree in that academic route? Where was your specialism?

Phil Vickerman (10:05.581)

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (10:08.867)

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Phil Vickerman (10:19.023)

educational psychology was what I focused in and exactly, exactly, I tried to understand myself maybe first through that degree. And actually I do think it opened up a real sort of interest but also some sort of self-reflection on how people learn, how people engage, but also

Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:23.584)

No surprise in a sense.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:28.098)

Mmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (10:48.429)

maybe why people get knocked off track sometimes or if they... Absolutely.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:50.732)

Yeah. And you could bring your lived experience to, know, which was such a rich personal insight into that topic as well.

Phil Vickerman (10:58.081)

Yes, yeah absolutely. I also had, mean my dad was someone that worked with adults with learning disabilities and I was always sort of in and around to the people adults with learning disabilities and I started to take a real sort of interest in I suppose

Rt Hon Justine Greening (11:12.078)

Hmm?

Phil Vickerman (11:25.775)

you know, looking at, you know, how you could create access and opportunity for people. But also looking at trying different ways or, you know, being creative about, you know, how people learn and develop and thinking about that from my own experiences. And that really started to sort of drive my interest in, you know, why do some people learn in very traditional ways?

But if you actually provide the right opportunities, the right sort of space for people, everybody can learn and grow and develop. And eventually went on to University of Leeds. While I was working actually as a lecturer, did my doctorate in inclusive education, really interested in

Rt Hon Justine Greening (12:20.302)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (12:22.101)

special educational needs and disability and so you know out of something that probably was a sort of personal interest in terms of me struggling but then finding my way through also wanting to to really look at well why do some people either get held you know held back you know and I think the other thing that I found certainly in my

Rt Hon Justine Greening (12:42.638)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (12:50.425)

Pro Vice Chancellor of the Student Experience role, one of the things I made a conscious decision to do was to talk about my education and talk about my learning. I thought that was really important because I think sometimes, you know, our students or other people see someone in a senior leadership position of a university and think, must have just sailed through education, you know, in some way. And it really

Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:02.563)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (13:18.691)

was amazing when I shared some of these stories. Staff coming up to me in particular saying, I am so glad that you shared that or that was my experience. So I think having those open conversations, those lived experiences, you know, really, really started to get people talking. And at the time, probably more, you know, with my academic and professional service colleagues in university than with my students actually.

But I think that those experiences have really shaped what I wanted to do in the student experience.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:58.926)

Because you're in the perfect role now, in a sense, aren't you? Because not only... Yes, yeah, well, I had a dream job when I was Education Secretary and I think it's that same sense of a journey. You know how important education has been for you, but then the chance to make, as it were, the system work better for everyone else and to bring that journey you've been on, for a wider good, I think is... I mean, you are literally the perfect person in the perfect job.

Phil Vickerman (14:01.615)

I call it my dream job.

Phil Vickerman (14:08.334)

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (14:17.879)

Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:29.384)

perfect university, a university that really focuses on this so it's probably a good time to talk a little bit about how you've shaped if you like that agenda at Liverpool John Moores then and some of the practical steps that you've taken.

Phil Vickerman (14:34.447)

out.

Phil Vickerman (14:41.017)

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (14:44.377)

Yeah, well, one of the things I was very passionate about as Pro Vice Chancellor Student Experience and it was a deliberate of decision by the Vice Chancellor to sort of count the role as student experience. Quite often in universities you'll have a Pro Vice Chancellor Education or, but you know, we'd had a conversation about

Rt Hon Justine Greening (15:02.99)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (15:12.449)

student experience and the broader sort of holistic support, you know, in order for students to be successful. the student experience role, I see it as three sort of interacting areas. The first one is the education, you know, the curriculum. Of course, that's why students, you know, come to university, they have a passion for the subject. You know, it's about

having fantastic teaching and learning, good assessment, et cetera, all of those core fundamental things that I'm responsible for. But beyond that, there were two other things that I felt really wanted to sort of distinguish what we do at LJMU. The second was student support, guidance and advice.

So, you know, that's all our wellbeing services, our careers services, recreational physical activity, et cetera. So all of those services that are very, very student facing, that sometimes can sit separate to the sort of academic, the curriculum piece. So looking at how we could interconnect them much more.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (16:29.602)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Phil Vickerman (16:34.807)

as well as our student accommodation providers, recognising students spend a lot of time outside of university in the curriculum and actually sometimes if things go wrong or don't always work, sometimes it can be outside the formal teaching structure. And then the third one was around a sense of belonging and a sense of engagement.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:01.921)

Is

Phil Vickerman (17:04.538)

and one of the things we did at LJMU, I'm the sort of executive link to our student union, and we made, we took a little bit of a risk and it was just the right timing with the board, the governors and everything. We doubled our student union's block grant. So for about 10 years,

Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:19.278)

Mm-hmm.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:27.534)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (17:29.999)

We were, you know, the student union got a million pounds and it was just rolling, rolling forward. And I was really keen that we invested more into the student union with expectations. But my sort of experience, sort of gut feeling with the student union was...

Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:43.64)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (17:55.907)

the majority of students that had been engaging with the student union at the time were those students that probably were quite successful in school. They probably had less pressure to earn money outside university, et cetera, et cetera. Not a problem with that, know, clubs and society and anything else. But what, you know, the challenge I threw down to the student union was to continue to do that, but look much broader to, you know, all of those students that

Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:08.493)

Yep.

Phil Vickerman (18:25.785)

for whatever reason, and not engaging with the student union. And we've really transformed the amount of engagement with students, the range of clubs and societies. We've now got carer societies, there's neurodiverse societies, all sorts of things.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:28.45)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:45.774)

So it sounds like you and I've met, you know, I met the, I went to the student union when I was up in Liverpool and, you know, it's right in the heart of the university. Yeah, absolutely. But also what you're painting is a picture where you almost have these different bits of a jigsaw puzzle on student experience and you're getting them all to point in the same direction so that they all in their own way, amplify and improve the experience that

Phil Vickerman (18:51.875)

Yes, in our new building, in the Student Life building.

Phil Vickerman (19:04.484)

Yes.

Absolutely.

Phil Vickerman (19:13.667)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (19:14.67)

that students had. And what was the response of the Student Union reps? mean, I guess they were delighted at the prospect of more investment. And at the same time, presumably, you you were sort of saying, you need to come up with more of a plan on how you can represent the whole student body, in a sense, not just provide a great job for some of it.

Phil Vickerman (19:23.15)

Yes.

Phil Vickerman (19:36.271)

Yes, yeah. think, I mean, one of the critical things is relationship building. And, you know, I think, you know, developing a much closer relationship with the leadership of the student union, as well as the sabbatical, the elected officers, and really having an open conversation about, yeah, what is working, but some of the areas that, you know, we wanted them to look at.

you know, sort of painted actually in the, there was a three year commitment that we get and we're just at the point of reviewing that three year commitment now, where do we go next? But I think that was quite important in terms of giving them some time. And we gave them some parameters around things that we wanted them to do, know, look at widening access, et cetera. And actually, you know, over the time,

Rt Hon Justine Greening (20:20.504)

Mm.

Phil Vickerman (20:33.249)

it's really deepened our relationship because some of the things that maybe even the student union didn't know about the background of their students that were quite reactive, club societies, they put these things on and either people come or they don't come. But really getting underneath, well, why are people not coming? Is it the timing? Is it to do with the cost of doing?

you know, a particular society, you know, a whole host of different things. So yes, they relish the opportunity. And I think the important thing that, you know, I've seen in terms of success is that, you know, we supported them to do the things that they felt were important. And actually their values are very much aligned with us around inclusivity and diversity.

but also it helped me steer some of the things that I wanted to see. And we started to develop a much more sort of deliberate approach. We started to talk much more around safeguarding, supporting people in clubs and societies, things that are very critical within the university context, but maybe less.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:34.318)

Mm-hmm.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:54.764)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (21:55.019)

less formalized in clubs and societies. So it brought us together in lots and lots of different ways. And I think if you look at the literature, there is quite a lot of literature that will show, in order for students to succeed, all of these variables, if you want, need to be in the mix. it's not that you have to curate a very fixed

Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:19.437)

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (22:24.267)

approach but if you provide the range of services students will naturally select or you know the things that are important to them and looking back on my education I probably didn't have that opportunity at the range until I went to college where actually there was probably more resources than there were you know there were in schools so but the outcome of that we've seen massive engagement.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:33.816)

Mm-hmm.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:38.071)

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (22:51.439)

increase. We now have very clear data on students that maybe were less represented. Our national student survey, the annual results, the view of the student union was in the 40 percents. It's now in high 70s, nearly into the 80s percent in terms of recognising the importance of the student union.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:00.654)

Mm-hmm.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:14.199)

one.

Phil Vickerman (23:19.693)

So, you it's been a massive, massive journey. And I'm really keen that, you know, we continue and, you know, we build even further on that as we go forward. But, you know, having a student union that's for everybody, basically, you know, and it's a bit like, you know, the education experience, really just looking at people's needs. And we've got over a hundred clubs and societies as well. So I, I sometimes joke, we've got things from the serious thing like the physics society.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:49.39)

Okay.

Phil Vickerman (23:49.977)

through to the Noodle Society or the Taylor Swift Society or the Pokemon Society. But if you look at the board game society, but you look at the groups of people that come, people find their place where they feel comfortable and doing those sorts of things actually has really started to help people.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (23:54.462)

Yeah, whatever your interest.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (24:16.462)

And I think the other area that certainly I've seen you really focus on has been that partnership and collaboration with the Liverpool City region. And I think really showing the university's broader role. And actually it works two ways, doesn't it, in a sense, because those, students often do live locally. And so they're part of that.

Phil Vickerman (24:31.405)

Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (24:38.978)

But at the same time, you know, there's a lot you can offer. And I talked about, for example, how you're providing these key talent supply chains, particularly around healthcare is one example. But some of the focus of the University around sports and, you know, it's interesting to see how it develops over time. So it's probably worth just touching on how you see your role in the context of that Liverpool City Region partnership work that you now do, not just with the Combined Mayoral Authority

Phil Vickerman (24:48.42)

Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (25:07.864)

but also with other universities.

Phil Vickerman (25:10.669)

Yeah, I think one of the, and probably actually COVID was the time where, you know, as a group of Liverpool universities, we really came together, you know, to not only support all of the students, but, you know, the city and the region. And, you know, that actually probably fired some of the work that we are doing.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (25:24.248)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (25:40.503)

as a group of universities together actually, recognising that some of these big city region or societal issues, you know, it's not about being in competition with each other as universities, it's about looking at, you know, how can we work together in a really sort of purposeful collaborative way to actually benefit the city region, you know, the people in the city region, but, you know, in doing so.

benefit our students. I think one of the two things that we have really worked together on as a group of universities is things around driving economic growth, skills and workforce development. So looking at where are the skills, workforce gaps.

What are the sorts of employers or sectors are the city region trying to bring in? What's the role of the university in, whether it's degree apprenticeships through to the health sector, as you mentioned, or education, some of those really important public services as well. And also looking at as a university.

you know, how can we be stronger working in partnership and actually recognising difference but also similarities and actually coming together with our various experiences, know, we're stronger working across the city region. And I think one of the biggest challenges we have as a city region is that, you know,

looking at how you can retain the sort of talent, the graduate pipeline, having sufficient high skilled jobs for students to go into in the city region, particularly at LJMU. Half of our students are commuter students. They were born in the city. They want to stay in the city, grow their families in the city, et cetera.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:48.792)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (28:03.479)

So, you what role can we play as a university working with a combined authority, you know, whether that is around job creation, skills creation, you know, et cetera. And I think the work that we're doing now with the combined authority, but also with the individual councils, you know, the city councils, some of which have got some of the most challenging educational

Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:25.336)

Mm-hmm.

Phil Vickerman (28:32.599)

attainment educational outcomes in the country, really starting to work in a very purposeful way with those, both to raise aspiration and attainment of young people, but also supporting the families and the pipeline of adult students thinking of coming into university. But we're only ever going to succeed if we do that in partnership.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:40.589)

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (29:02.027)

That's with the city region, it's with voluntary organisations, you know, it's working with The Purpose Coalition on the different connections that we have now that actually can start to join some of these links up and I think that's the important bit. It's making those connections in a much more sort of meaningful way and having those conversations that we can start to look at how we can support each other.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:09.58)

Yeah? Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:31.766)

I mean, it's such a good point. And do you feel that in a sense for higher education, one of the lessons from some of the work that Liverpool John Moores has done and that you've you've very much led on is when it comes to devolution and if you like more regions with more mayors, there's a huge opportunity to more formally bring

Phil Vickerman (29:41.497)

you

Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:53.822)

universities into the process, whether it's some of your processes like developing that access and participation plan of the future and maybe a more formal role for the city region alongside that and employers or you you having that more formal role within some of those growth discussions and proposals that are coming through. It feels like there's a huge opportunity Phil doesn't it?

Phil Vickerman (30:04.356)

Yeah.

Phil Vickerman (30:16.047)

There's a huge opportunity and recently I was talking to some colleagues at the Combined Authority. One of the things they have is they have massive research units. They've got lots and lots of data around their population. We've got a lot of that data or we're trying to find out sometimes some of that data. So why don't we join forces and share those sorts of things?

things like access and participation plans. We have tailored our APP, which will start this August, to pick up on some of the real sort of challenges that the city region have. So how can we work together? We've also done, if you look at some of the initiatives around Race Equality Charter or Athena SWAN.

charters, you know, we've done reciprocal mentoring where university leaders have been paired with students, but now we're taking that reciprocal mentoring into working with leaders, diverse leaders in the city, the combined authorities now are doing reciprocal mentoring. We're sharing those models and, you know, the combined authority

Rt Hon Justine Greening (31:35.534)

How interesting, yeah.

Phil Vickerman (31:43.055)

you know, are starting to use those and use some of our experiences. you equally, when you actually sit down with the combined authority and actually look at, you know, and particularly with devolution, some of the things that they're wanting to do, there's a real opportunity for us to tap into that and, you know, work together. I think that, you know, that's the important things. And particularly on issues around

social mobility, breaking down barriers. We shouldn't be looking at this in a very sort of self-interested way. If we get this right, actually it will benefit everybody. And I think one of the things with Liverpool as a city and the universities in particular, we've got some great people that are prepared, not only leaders.

across the city region, but to come together and work on those shared common goals. And there's a much better chance, I think, of us starting to make progress on those.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (32:52.686)

I think that's absolutely right, Phil. you know, we use a framework called The Purpose Goals. There's 15 of them. You know, some are education, some are access to opportunities, some are health and wellbeing and they should divide the other barriers that we might find. And no one organisation has all of the answers or should play a lead on all of those. But actually, once you start to put together you, the local employers,

Phil Vickerman (32:58.883)

Yes.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (33:17.486)

you know, the Combined Mayoral Authority and some of the council leaders, actually between the NHS, you do have a lot of the answers under your bonnet really. there's a real opportunity to start to bring them together more broadly. Look, Phil, it's been fantastic doing this podcast, really insightful actually, to get a sense of the work that Liverpool John Moores has done. And also I think,

Phil Vickerman (33:32.548)

Yes.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (33:44.866)

How interesting isn't it that it's your own journey in a sense that has fired up your sense of purpose on it, but also then being something that you've been able to bring into your role. And I think maybe, you know, if we've been talking to that 15 year old Phil, you know, who would have thought? And I think what it tells you is actually sometimes when you are probably finding your biggest challenges in life, those are the moments when, you know, maybe you're growing and actually

Phil Vickerman (33:49.315)

Yeah.

Rt Hon Justine Greening (34:13.656)

you're going to grow in a way that will mean you can really have a sense of purpose for the future because of those challenges that you've had to grapple with. So I think some genuine lessons there for all of us, Phil. So Phil Vickerman, Professor Phil Vickerman, should say, Pro Vice Chancellor of the University of Liverpool John Moores University. Thanks so much for doing the podcast. It's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you.

Phil Vickerman (34:38.863)

Thank you very much and enjoy the conversation.