Sean Duffy on Wise Group’s 40-Year Evolution in Combatting Unemployment and Housing Issues
The Wise Group, with a history spanning over four decades, was birthed amidst the backdrop of 1983 Glasgow, a city grappling with the dual challenges of staggering unemployment and poor housing. The group's inception was an act of social innovation, spearheaded by the visionary Alan Sinclair and his diligent team, who sought to empower the unemployed with practical skills, while also striving to improve living conditions through widespread home insulation projects.
Transcript
Rt Hon Justine Greening (00:02.035)
Welcome to this week's Fit For Purpose podcast. This week, I'm really delighted. We've got Sean Duffy. He's CEO of Wise Group, and I'm gonna get him to tell you a little bit more about what the Wise Group does in a second. But I think, suffice to say from my perspective, I often say that driving social mobility is literally one life at a time. And I think probably if there's any organisation that knows that from the inside out, more...
more than the most, it's probably the Wise Group. Sean, I'm gonna bring you in at this stage. Brilliant to have you on the podcast and thanks so much for doing. Tell us a little bit about what the Wise Group is all about, what you do, and then we'll sort of dig into that as we go along, but give people a little bit of a sense of what it's all about.
Sean Duffy (00:37.966)
Thank you.
Sean Duffy (00:52.882)
Okay, lovely to be here, Justine. The Wise Group been around for over 40 years now. It was originally founded around unemployment and substandard accommodation back in Glasgow in 1983. And the early team then led by Alan Sinclair was really focused on using people who were unemployed, giving them practical skills
and retrofitting homes. And at that point, they had insulated over 250,000 homes and the work grew out to land-wise and tree-wise. And then subsequently it came together and the Wise Group itself. And as time went on, the Wise Group founded the Intermediate Labour Market model, which made it one of the largest social enterprises in the UK. It was adopted across Europe. And it really found itself influencing
welfare approaches in the UK throughout the 90s and 2000s. But as unemployment fell, what the Group did was it moved from giving practical experience to people through work to supporting people into work and building skills and then really began to focus on social mobility. And today we find the Group, you know, it really benefits from its unique insight at a community level across the UK in terms of the barriers that people have to sustainable
living and sustainable social mobility and progression. And where we find ourselves now is we've built up a real evidence base that allows us to take an evidence-based approach to changing lives throughout Scotland, England and the wider UK.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (02:35.963)
And your work, I think that's a brilliant synopsis by the way of something that is complex. Your work really focuses, I think it's fair to say, you know, in really four different areas. And I think in a way it starts with that housing, fuel poverty area, and then as you say, widens out. So you've got work on employment, on skills, but also I think what's interesting, this targeting particularly as well on
on re-offending and helping people really transform their lives when perhaps they've served at custodial centres and then they're coming out and trying to get back on their feet. I think for me it's how you bundled all of that together that is really special actually, but comes as you say with a lot of learnings doesn't it on how to genuinely transform some really challenged lives.
Sean Duffy (03:33.534)
I think one of the things that's apparent is that what you realise is that poverty is not a single issue, a single issue area. It's a multifaceted area. So, you know, and I think this leads you on to the discussion about policy making. You know, and policy making tends to be around a single issue focuses. Where our teams find the most resonant support is you go into a house, you go into a household, you go into a household situation and you realise that they're
There are many, many different levers at play in that situational challenge that household is facing. When you look at rehabilitative work that we support across the UK, most often there are a number of requirements or needs below that offense, if you like, that's led to that incarceration. So most often it's not the criminality, it's the...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:21.669)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (04:29.598)
I suppose it's the backstory that's led up to the criminality that we have to get under the skin of and understand. So it's the multifaceted nature of poverty and despair and desperation and social stagnation that we find our enterprise being most resonant and understanding better.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:34.343)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (04:48.427)
And I think what was interesting to me, I want to come onto that Commission on Breaking Down Barriers ton Employment Opportunities that we've kicked off with you, is the work of those relational mentors that you do. And it's like how specialist in a way it ends up being, because these are people who have to build trust and that takes time, but then use real judgment to almost understand where that person is in their journey and then
Sean Duffy (05:16.995)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (05:17.975)
what it's going to take and as you say these different facets of challenges that they'll face and how to blend all of those issues together to genuinely get some progress. So give us a sense of the kinds of people who work at Wise Group and what they do but also what drives them their own lived experience often that they bring to this.
Sean Duffy (05:44.756)
Well, I mean, you know, you mentioned relational mentoring, relational mentoring is core across everything that we do. And just to pause for a moment on that, because it's important that we understand that we had been responsive to many different, I suppose, partner requirements over many years to deliver ubiquitous offerings, you know, a single universal approach to what was a multifaceted issue.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (06:04.252)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (06:11.886)
So relational mentoring is something we've designed over many years, which is really based around 15 identified needs. So there are needs, for example, you know, it could be energy support, digital skills, disability, work skills and experience. There's a number of things that play inside of a household that's contributing to their situation. And what we have is we have a cohort of colleagues that mirror, I suppose, the societal challenges that we're trying to support and alleviate.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (06:17.893)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (06:43.058)
You know, they're compassionate, they're kind, they're highly professional, they're highly emotionally intelligent and empathetic to the situations that they find themselves in. And that mix of human and professional expertise and focus is proving really, really powerful. And what it does is it engenders both trust in the relationship, which is hugely important in the relationship that they find themselves in with the households they're trying to support, but a real sense of...
understanding of the situation that they're trying to affect. You know, so they're not outside of that bubble, they're not trying to diagnose the situation without any experience of it. They're inside it, experiencing it, feeling it and understanding it. And that really builds that trust and connection that allows them to be successful.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (07:33.231)
And the kinds of people who are doing this give us a sense. I mean, if someone's listening to this podcast and thinks that sounds like a hugely important role to be able to play. Do you do training for people? What roles have they had perhaps before they come to Working for Wise Group? I think from what you're saying, let's just be clear, some, you know, a number of your employees will themselves
have been in those situations and that's why they can do such an empathetic, emotionally intelligent role. So if people are interested in shifting into this sort of role, what's your experience of almost what they'll need to do, what might be maybe past experience they might need?
Sean Duffy (08:19.47)
I think, you know, at risk of sounding glib here, one of the things that's hugely important is that anyone who joins the Wise Group, any individual who joins us, passionately shares the values we have and passionately shares the belief we have and the purpose that we set out to achieve every day. Our colleagues come from a whole range of backgrounds, you know, from police, police
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:37.652)
Mmm.
Sean Duffy (08:46.542)
from the public sector, from banking, from nursing, from academia, they are attracted to us because of what we do and the way we do it. And I think that gives, there's a real powerful connection between the cohort of, we have almost 450 colleagues across the UK now, and there's a real bond between them. A normal example of measurement of cultural
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:49.912)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (08:57.643)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (09:16.078)
strength is when people do colleagues surveys, as an example. Our latest colleagues survey on engagement gives a 92% score across the UK, which is pretty remarkable. You know, we never take it for granted because there's a huge amount of effort goes into that and we have as a stated aim that our colleagues always come first in everything that we do. And we've managed to build that trust and belief in that over the years. So we enjoy a...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:24.723)
Well. Ha ha.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:38.613)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (09:45.454)
a good reputation as a place to work, as a place to learn. And that's helped us attract people from all different backgrounds, all different age groups, all different social economic groups, demographics, et cetera, which gives us a richness and a diversity, which allows us to mirror the richness and diversity of the society we're supporting. And I think that's a real strength for us.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (09:57.791)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:15.435)
I guess it makes it a really interesting place to work and team to be part of, on top of the fact that the work you're doing is so hugely important and it transforms lives, which is in itself massively satisfying.
Sean Duffy (10:31.102)
It is, as you can imagine, no two days, no two weeks, no two months are the same. And it's very much an equitable approach we take to what we do and an equitable approach to who we attract. So as I say, the richness is in the diversity. One of our values is we celebrate and respect individual difference. And that reflects
Rt Hon Justine Greening (10:37.595)
Mmm.
Sean Duffy (10:58.754)
the strength of our enterprise and the strength of our approach. And it was founded out of moving away from the ubiquitous offerings that were encouraged to provide in the past. So there is no surprise that we have that equitable approach and that diversity and that relational mentoring, as an example, with its 15 identified needs, takes an individualistic approach to each circumstance that it encounters. So there's a real cohesion between
who we are, what we do and how we do it, and the people who do it for us.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (11:33.683)
Yeah, and I think when I met a number of those relational mentors last month when we had a roundtable with all of them, I think what really struck me is, you know, it's just the level of insight in an ex-practitioner experience into working with people and getting lives on track and helping life stay on track. And if you like the complexity
that is really hard to bolt down, but that sense of understanding what needs to happen in people's lives in order for them practically to move forward. And certainly from my experience as being an MP, dealing with some really difficult constituency issues and people affected by them. I mean, often they'd be people I'd have known for years building up those relationships in order to really
be someone that they genuinely felt they could come to with some really tough challenges, but they were hugely impressive. And I'm going to guess, because I'm being an MP, working locally, really intense roles, but also some of the most satisfying work that you can think of doing. Do you feel like that's how your employees see it? And do you need to support them when it can be quite an intense role that they've taken on?
Sean Duffy (13:00.178)
Absolutely, I mean there's a huge amount of emotional energy goes into the work that they do, a huge amount of it. And as a result of that, their well-being is hugely important because, you know, as I love saying, you can't pour from an empty cup. They give so much to the circumstances and the people that they are supporting that we've got to, we've put a huge amount of effort into taking care of them and taking care of their physical, mental
Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:05.764)
Mm-hmm. Yep. More like.
Sean Duffy (13:27.942)
and financial wellbeing to make sure that they're at the best they can possibly be. Because they do face some harrowing circumstances and some harrowing situations because we tend to be working at the real hard edges of poverty, you know, just not on, not just on the line, but really deep down, you know, and where it's endemic and generational and it takes a long sustained
Rt Hon Justine Greening (13:44.859)
Yeah.
Sean Duffy (13:57.746)
interaction and journey to help these households find a path to sustainability for them and their family members. And no one situation is the same. You know, it goes back to that single issue point, because previously you would come across households where there may be four or five or six different programs that play in one household because they're all single issue focused
but they're not really having an impact. And what we're doing is we're bringing that all together with one person and one organisation approach for one household with the multifaceted nature of support that's required.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (14:41.535)
Which makes so much more sense because actually you have to do it through the lens of their lives, not almost from an institution that says, well, we've got these different programs, so that's what you have to have. It has to be joined up, otherwise it just doesn't work. And I mean, obviously, we're really proud to be partnering with you on the Commission for Breaking Down Barriers to Employment Opportunities, because so much of this is about ultimately...
doing that initial work to help people get to the stage where then they can finally connect up to what are some great opportunities out there and almost a potential life ahead of them where they're resilient and they can really finally start to make the most of their talents. I mean obviously it's a hugely complex piece of work that we're trying to look at through this commission but
from a Wise Group perspective, Sean, give us your sense of what you hope the commission can really achieve. And obviously it's hugely important because it's a general election year. So if ever there was a time to be setting out some really positive constructive solutions, it's probably this year, isn't it?
Sean Duffy (15:52.29)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's interesting, you know, there's a lot of reflection on the impact the pandemic had on the country. And at one point, you know, we're in an era of relatively low unemployment, relatively high skills attainment, and, you know, in work achievement was moving and trending in the right direction. Then this, you know, the pandemic came along
Rt Hon Justine Greening (16:10.629)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (16:22.174)
and those who were nearing the front of the queue for support, those who were furthest from sustainability previously, were all of a sudden displaced. Because the pandemic had such an impact in the hospitality sector and other sectors, and it created instability, and then we had the economically inactive. All of these groups of people then came into play in terms of employment skills again. And those who require that more sustained
Rt Hon Justine Greening (16:30.92)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (16:51.07)
intensive, emotionally intelligent, caring approach to get them back to a point of sustainability were displaced, whether it be those who were experiencing homelessness, the care system, substance abuse, those who had disabilities or coming out of the justice system. They need bespoke, holistic, equitable support.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:13.552)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (17:14.93)
And they were displaced by lots of people who came onto the market because of the change that the pandemic had created. And what I would like is to see is to see us recognise that and not use pre-pandemic thinking for post-pandemic challenges. You know, when you and I last met, we talked about notionally, 80% of our population is costing us, sorry, 20% of our population is costing us 80% of our budget.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (17:32.157)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (17:43.298)
That is never more true than now. And the more that we can target specific areas of need in an intensive and sustained way, that's where we'll get the exponential uplift in societal change and that social mobility because those cohorts really need it. So that move away from ubiquitous offerings, that universality of
employability support or skill support and it being more targeted and tailored and more recognising of the multifaceted nature of the circumstances that these people feel or find themselves in. That's where we'll see the biggest impact.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:18.251)
Mm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (18:28.587)
I think that's right. And it's those three words you said that I think you bring them together and they are really powerful. Bespoke, caring, intelligent approach. And this sense that actually if you can have that more tailored, smart approach, and it's relational mentoring and all of that, actually for...
If you're like a new cohort of people with less profound challenges, perhaps it's more of a timing issue, COVID meant that they were out of work, they need to retain. You can take all of that deep insight for that core Group that the Wise Group has always really targeted and bring, if you like, a lighter touch version of that for that much broader Group. But in a sense, we do know what the
solutions are and I think what's interesting to me is, you know, maybe I could be sat here today saying, well, you know, there's a plethora of different areas, you know, how are you going to prioritise? But I think the prioritisation comes from the group, doesn't it, of people you're focused on and actually it's the lives that you want to prioritise and then from that the
Sean Duffy (19:40.383)
Yes it does.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (19:52.855)
sorts out what you then need to start focusing on in terms of the what. It's the who that really drives this isn't it?
Sean Duffy (20:01.078)
Yes, and also to give it efficacy within a government setting, if you like, or even an academic setting, we evidence this, and it's important that we evidence it using the concept of social return on investment, because that then brings a legitimacy to it. Because this is not just about doing good things for people who require support, it's about doing it in a way that demonstrates a social economic, or social financial and cultural impact.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (20:17.067)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (20:31.698)
on society. You know, an example of some of the things that we're doing just now across the UK, you know, we can see ratios of one to 10 payback in places in the Northeast of England, one to 44 in Glasgow, and one to 24 in other areas of the UK. And what we're effectively seeing is, what we've been able to demonstrate to local authorities and central government is, for each pound that you invest in support in these
these specific areas of need. We're generating 10 pounds, 44 pounds, or 24 pounds of social return on investment back. So there are areas in the North East of England that are getting 10 million pounds of social impact. And that social impact comes out across waiting lists, addiction services, homelessness services, statutory services. It's the alleviation of pressure.
on these areas that you can directly map. So this is a different concept of value for money now. This is social value for money, which is where I believe our fiscal challenges as a country lead us to focus more of our attention and we'll see more of a societal impact.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:41.81)
Mmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (21:50.779)
Yeah. And if you were a, I mean, I was about to say, if you were a finance person, I am a finance person, I'm an accountant by trade. But if you were looking at this through the lens of, right, I need to get a better profit and loss for Britain over the next 10 years. How am I going to do that? How am I going to go out to the debt markets and say, yep, we're on track here, have a structural improvement in our performance for the long term? You'd be doing this.
Sean Duffy (21:59.362)
Hahaha!
Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:21.275)
And you'd be proving it through that social return on investment, because you'd be saying, look, we know it's this 20%, you know, setting aside how transformative it is for lives, setting that aside as important as it is. If you were just saying, right, what do the numbers tell me in terms of where I need to focus? Here's where you'd focus. And actually, I think it makes the case that we'd always make to employers, this is a win-win. Actually, through putting in place
Sean Duffy (22:46.946)
Yes.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (22:51.259)
you are able to transform lives for the better. So it's not like we're actually pushing down a route here that somehow is a nice fluffy route, people sort of have a life transformed and that costs a bit of money, but actually that's the good thing to do. Of course it's the right thing to do. This is an essential thing to do if we are going to have stronger public finances for all of us to invest in.
the public services that we all rely on. And so it shift what Wise Group is, is a big part of helping us do is shift out of that vicious cycle and switch it into a virtuous circle where actually people have better lives. They fulfill their potential. If things go wrong, actually they can get back on track. But in doing so, it's just better for everyone, isn't it? And that's why in the end, this is in everyone's interest to see
social mobility and lives on track really, really made progress on actually in this quite systemic structural way.
Sean Duffy (23:58.038)
Absolutely. I mean, you know, we talk a lot about the unintended consequence of previous policies as creating dependency rather than legacy. And the social return on investment concept is about creating legacy, because what you're doing is you're getting more out than you're putting in, and you're getting more out across various elements of society.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (24:09.162)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Sean Duffy (24:27.95)
I mean, one practical example is you mentioned justice earlier on in their chat about, and you talked about rehabilitation. When you look at it, it's an excessive £40,000 per annum to have someone in incarceration. The work that we do tends to involve, say, 2 and 1 half to £3,000 per head per year. Now,
one of the programs that we run in the national program in Scotland, the reoffending rate on the national program we run is less than 10 percent
of those who we work with within the first year of the programme. The national reoffending rate is up towards 40%. So if you just take those metrics and you take the £40,000 per annum and the £2,500 to £3,000 per annum, the sub 10% reoffending rate and the close to 40% reoffending rate, you don't need a mathematician to work out that there's a clear financial benefit to that. And that hasn't... You haven't then yet...
included the social benefits of remaining
out of prison. The social benefits of the family unit being back together, the working on the potential substance abuse issues that you're feeling, getting safe and stable employment, having a safe and stable accommodation. All of these things you're able to work on constructively. And this is where social return investment comes in because you then start to see the apportioned benefit of sustainability. So therefore it's legacy rather than dependency. And
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:11.879)
And then the fact that there's fewer victims from, you know, the crime and that broader societal improvement. I think it's such a fundamental point. And in a way, what I hope we can achieve with the commission is almost not to say to policymakers why you should do this, but in a way, I think we should be challenging them to say, you should be explaining why you wouldn't do this
Sean Duffy (26:16.737)
Absolutely.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (26:42.439)
because actually it is so patently sensible. Why would you not move significantly towards this sort of an agenda? And I know that, you know, a lot of what you're doing is trying to reach out even beyond the Wise Group and the people that you're working with. And I want to ask you about how you end up doing this role in a second, but if you are saying to people listening to this,
and who maybe think this is fantastic and maybe I won't be working at Wise Group but I want to see what I can do to help. Whether you're someone at Wise Group or someone outside it, the stakeholders you work with, what is your ask of them, Sean, as part of all of this? What do you think?
Sean Duffy (27:36.386)
Be open-minded. And, you know, again, another glib reality is, if we keep doing the same things in the same way, we're gonna keep seeing the same results. And I do think the pandemic did many things to our country. One of the things it did for us is it showed what we can do when we have to.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:36.467)
What's that?
Rt Hon Justine Greening (27:50.995)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:04.244)
Yeah, I agree.
Sean Duffy (28:04.786)
And my worry is that we are slowly losing the experience of what necessity made us do and how well we coped through necessity. Now we're back to...
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:17.835)
And the fact that people worked together brilliantly without any kind of manual particularly that someone had, they just had an overriding ambition of what they needed to do and so people naturally played their role didn't they?
Sean Duffy (28:30.538)
Yeah. And it's, you know, as recent as yesterday, I was talking to our board about the difference between the burden of necessity and the burden of choice. And in most cases, the burden of choice is greater. And what we have now, whether it be with a changing government, a change in political landscape, whatever it may be, we collectively have the burden of choice. And my ask of the stakeholders is, recognise that burden and make different choices than you've made before.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (28:39.7)
Mm-hmm.
Sean Duffy (28:59.286)
Because the choices we've made before have led us to where we are. And we're consciously trying to change where we are. So let's make different choices for those who really need us to make those choices on their behalf.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:05.907)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:13.383)
And maybe it's obvious, but actually it's this sense of if we want things to change, then we need to change too. It's not something that's gonna be done to us. It's something that we need to be part of changing for ourselves. And for me, I think that's really empowering because actually what it means is we can all be part of the solution. It's not, this is not a burden. As you say, this is actually something that we get to decide whether it happens
Sean Duffy (29:40.895)
Yes.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (29:41.803)
not necessarily even a government of the day, they're part of it, they can help lead it and drive it, but actually this is something for all of us to take a view on. I think the final question I really wanted to ask because it's, I mean it's inspiring listening to you talk, you know the Wise Group I think is an inspiring organisation to come across and you know it was an absolute
Rt Hon Justine Greening (30:11.315)
They were, I mean, just genuinely incredible people. How do you end up in this role, Sean, yourself? I mean, it must be a real challenge to think I'm the person leading this, actually, because you've got probably one of the most amazing teams in Britain, haven't you, that someone could have the responsibility and privilege of heading up. How do you end up in it, in that role?
Sean Duffy (30:40.11)
It's, yeah, well, firstly, it is a privilege. And I say that with all genuineness, it is a privilege. I thoroughly enjoy what we do. I have to say, I wish that the Wise Group didn't have to exist, but it does. You know, one of the things that we talk about is, and very, very rarely other here organisations say, our objective would always be that there was no need for us. We didn't need to be here, but we do.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (30:56.561)
Mm-hmm.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (31:06.323)
Yes.
Sean Duffy (31:11.382)
I worked in the private sector all my life and at one point in our life a few years ago one of our children had a serious health issue and during that time we got, I got a sense of what the sector that I now work in does. To my shame I had never really heard of the third sector nor had I been involved in them.
And I was given the opportunity to put myself forward for this role. Actually my work anniversary is six years this Thursday, so I've been with the Wise Group for six years this Thursday, and it's been in and went a flash. And it's the most rewarding and challenging role I've ever undertaken. Rewarding from the perspective that you mentioned
in terms of the satisfaction of helping and supporting people and families across the UK to reach some sense of sustainability and stability is incredibly rewarding and it speaks to who you are as a human being, which is not always the case in the work that you do.
Sean Duffy (32:33.266)
And more than that is about the ability to have conversations with people yourself and others across the UK and help bring to life in an emotionally intelligent but practical way the reality of situations that people are in. And I think that's something that most often we don't necessarily achieve at national levels, the connection between the reality on the ground and the aspiration
centrally and what I see is doing now is doing more of that. It was purely life circumstances and opportunity that conspired to give me the privilege of doing the role that I'm doing.
Rt Hon Justine Greening (33:19.559)
And doing it really brilliantly. I know we're gonna have to finish now unfortunately but Sean it's just first of all just a great chance to talk to you today I've absolutely loved it and so also privileged to be able to work with you on this commission so looking forward to what's ahead on that but I think most of all it's just such a great
a great organisation that you lead in and I think it's been brilliant for us all to hear a little bit more about what you do and what drives you. I think it's inspirational. So Sean Duffy, CEO of Wise Group, thank you very much.
Sean Duffy (33:59.726)
Thank you.
