Menopause Matters: Supporting Women's Health and Careers in the Modern Workplace
Description
Join Justine Greening and guest Karen Quinn in this episode of Fit For Purpose, as they dive into the often overlooked topic of menopause and its impact on women in the workplace. With personal experiences and extensive research, they shed light on the challenges faced by the 13 million menopausal women in the UK, 3.5 million of whom are part of the workforce. From the hidden struggles to the glass ceiling effect, they discuss why employers need to take menopause seriously and provide the necessary support for their employees. Through open conversation, practical actions, and the development of a Menopause Action Plan, this episode aims to break the taboo and create a more inclusive and supportive work environment for women in all stages of their careers.
Chapters
[00:02:05] Missed signs of menopause, lack of confidence.
[00:03:16] Menopause taboos hinder women's career progression.
[00:09:07] Plenty of solutions for menopause in workplaces.
[00:11:19] Gender gap at work needs addressing urgently.
Transcript
Rt Hon Justine Greening:
Welcome to a really special edition of the Fit for Purpose podcast. This is the edition where we're really going to focus in on the menopause and women's health. It's an area that I personally think we haven't even remotely talked about enough as a country. It really matters increasingly for employers. And so I'm joined here today by Karen Quinn, who I love working with, and works with me on my social mobility and purpose coalition work, but also is MD of Crowne Associates Employee Engagement. Karen, tell us a little bit about your perspective on the menopause and in a sense, the impact it has for millions of women around the country.
Karen Quinn:
Yes, absolutely, Justine, and lovely to be with you this afternoon. I think I started taking notice of this obviously because of my own experiences with the menopause and I've done a lot of reading around, a lot of watching of seminars and it's dawned on me increasingly what a huge issue this is for women across the UK but also for employers. Just to bore you with a few little stats at the start, 13 million women in the UK at the moment are either perimenopausal or menopausal and three and a half million of those are in the workplace. And indeed, menopausal women is the fastest growing demographic in the workplace in the UK. And when we talk about those 3 and 1 half million women, it isn't just the women. All of those women will have family members. They'll have friends. They will have spouses. They will have colleagues. And so this goes far, far wider than just the women that are being affected. And I think that's really why employers have now got to start taking this very, very seriously if they're not to lose a huge amount of talent and experience that women can offer through their 50s and 60s and beyond.
Rt Hon Justine Greening:
And I know we had a round table actually with Mims Davies, who's the Minister for Social Mobility, a couple of weeks ago, and we had lots of our employers there. But I think one of the things that struck me was you talking about your own experience almost, and just that steady realisation of what was going on. So maybe it's worth just talking a little bit about that, because I found it quite illuminating.
Karen Quinn:
Well, I did as well, Justine, actually, because it was only when I started to think back that actually I realized what had been going on. And sometimes I think it's easy to say that, oh, men don't understand or other people don't understand, but in my case, I didn't really even spot the signs myself. So I went through a number of years at work feeling increasingly lack of confidence, lack of self-esteem. I burst into tears at a moment's notice on a few occasions every week in front of my poor then boss. And... at the time never had any clue really or perspective that this was what was actually happening to me and it's only when I look back now from a post-menopausal distance that I think blimey how stupid were you not to have spotted that this was what you were going through and I think I got away quite likely I didn't have a lot of the common symptoms that some women suffer with and in hindsight I think I did probably breeze through it relatively easily but if I didn't even know as a woman what was happening to me then what hope is that there are sometimes four friends or spouses or colleagues and that's why I think this conversation is very, very important and that we start to just talk openly, break that taboo and stop being embarrassed about what is a perfectly normal stage of life for women.
Rt Hon Justine Greening:
I think there's definitely a taboo and I think there were women around the table talking about just having terrible hot flushes, I mean just dreadful hot flushes and all sorts of different symptoms, just what it does to people's emotional wellbeing and everything really and brain fog. So... you know, people have been on it the whole of their lives, suddenly thinking, hang on a minute, I kind of feel like I can't kind of fire on all cylinders mentally like I have been. And it felt to me like everyone's got their own bundle of symptoms, actually. And so it's different for every woman. But what we do know is we really need to get much more of a handle on this. And I was women minister for women and equality when I was in the cabinet. for a while and we introduced the gender pay gap and I think the reality is then Karen that a lot of our focus was at the beginning of those careers and getting into careers in this sense that actually there were some professions that just recruited too many men traditionally and not enough women and then so when you were looking at that gender pay gap after we'd introduced it the focus was all in on... that early years and you know whether when women start a family suddenly they start losing out then. At the same time, I think the reality was actually, ironically, all the work that had been happening through the Davis Commission and Hampton Alexander that led up to the gender pay gap had actually focused much more at senior level. So are women running businesses? Are we becoming chief execs of FTSE companies or not? And so in a weird way, the gender pay gap was brilliant because it shone a spotlight and it still does on what's going on. But actually, when you look at progress on women getting into more senior levels, it's almost like we sort of lost sight of the fact. We've slightly. It feels like it's easy to flatline on that. And I think now when you start saying, well, how come we've really made an improvement on the pipeline? There's no doubt about that. How how can we feel like we're getting more of a handle on careers post starting a family? what's going on and I think it's the fact we haven't ever really discussed this massive issue called the menopause that probably accounts for a lot of why women really can have fantastic careers and then it just feels like there isn't that final step perhaps into more senior roles and it doesn't matter you know whether you whether you're trying to become CEO of big company X, Y or Z or not, actually this is something that all of us go through isn't it? So it just feels like it's a missing piece of the jigsaw that we've basically, I think we have basically ignored actually in many respects as policymakers but also as employers.
Karen Quinn:
I think you're exactly right Justine and I think the Mims Davies event which was powered by Teleperformance who are doing a huge amount of work in this area, really, really impressive the thought that they've put into this. But it came up during the discussion the intersectionality of all of this because again, and I think I am often accused of oversharing, but my particular experience, you know, I left my first job, I had some children, I had some miscarriages, I brought the children up, I finally managed to get back into work, no sooner was I back into work than I had the miscarriage. miscarriage, the menopause, and then no sooner does that really pass over then suddenly there's caring responsibilities for women in many cases looking after elderly parents or family members. So all of these things I think throughout a woman's employment journey hamper their ability to progress and bring that glass ceiling into play time and time again. So it's a lot of different factors I think, the intersectionality of the whole thing, but the menopause is a huge thing that obviously takes a lot of years and starts at various points for every woman but is something that has been hidden for far too long, hasn't been talked about even with close family members and that's got to change.
Rt Hon Justine Greening:
And I think there are some implications, aren't there, then for employers, which is the ones that can really help their female employees navigate that time in their life will do better than the ones that don't bother to be part of the solution. And actually what I think was fantastic at the round table was all these companies, starting with teleperformance, talking about what they're already doing. So in a sense, these solutions are out there. And a lot of it is about starting the conversation, isn't it, with employers and with employees, about this issue.
Karen Quinn:
That's absolutely right and round that table we had businesses including Southeastern Railways, Aldemore Bank, Leonardo, Teleperformance obviously, we had universities, we had a huge range of organisations all at different stages of their journey but all acknowledging that there is a war for talent and to lose talented women because they've reached a certain stage in their life is just wrong. So there's a real willingness to learn and I think what we're one of the pieces of work that we're starting now is an employee engagement piece of work. not pretending to be medical experts, but starting that dialogue, starting that conversation with the men in the businesses, with the women in the businesses, and not just of a certain age but all the way through from first starters right through to more mature people. And then putting in place a menopause action plan that businesses can work towards and try to make reasonable adjustments that means that the women in their workforce can stay in place, can prosper, can be loyal to their employers and start to tackle that retention. problem because it's a lot cheaper to retain talent than it is to go out and seek new talent so I think that's something really important and we'll be working with that with businesses more and more in the months ahead.
Rt Hon Justine Greening:
And there's lots of, there are lots of solutions. It generally starts with making sure you've got an open culture. That is all about engaging with employees, about an issue like the menopause. But I think beyond that, there are often really simple and straightforward things I think that employers can do that will make a difference. Some of it is around how they deal with people. Some of it is the support they provide for women. And some of it, I think, can just be managing risks. actually, rather than waiting for things to go wrong and then having to, you know, swing in and try and support an employee, you know, who's really finding things hard. So there's lots, I think, that came out of those debates. I think part of what we need to do, and I think we can really positively do, is to bring those different employers together, share their experiences of what's working, what's not working. what the challenges are, how you go about overcoming them. But it's there and I think you're right. You know, in many respects, it's really important that every employer feels like they've got in place a proper menopause action plan, so that for their staff, they can be really clear about what they're doing, what they do do, and actually for talent, because let's face it. people look really critically at companies and about who they want to join to work with now these days. For the external talent market they can be really clear about how they're going to support you right the way through your career and although a lot of our social mobility work that we do through the Purpose Coalition is really... perhaps understandably focus on younger people and then, you know, finding their way and getting great opportunities. Actually, I think we increasingly need to recognise that this is a whole life strategy on social mobility and so you're not going to have equality of opportunity if you stop focusing on it say at 40 or 35. Actually what we need to be doing is making sure that people can really get that support for that journey right the way through their career, whatever they're doing.
Karen Quinn:
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And at the moment, only 14% of women who would like to ask for help from their employers are actually asking for help from their employers. So although there's some marvellous work going on already, there is a huge gap as well that still needs to be filled. And what's very clear is this doesn't need to cost employers a lot of money. It's not expensive to think about the uniform that you may be asking for. employees to wear if it's particularly hot or heavy, or to help send out hand-held fans to employees, which is something that teleperformance are doing, or to just set up little working groups and menopause cafes where people can get together in an honest and safe environment and talk about what they're facing and get advice from colleagues. It's not expensive, but it makes all the difference to women who are feeling that they are struggling, that they need support, and also signposting them to where they can get the help that they need. So yes, there's a lot to be done and I think the main thing is starting that conversation and with absolutely everybody and sweeping away that taboo.
Rt Hon Justine Greening:
And so if employers have been watching this perhaps, and they're starting to just think, actually, probably do need to do more on this, haven't really thought about this before, happy to and think probably should do, what would you suggest that immediate next step is, if you're right at the beginning of thinking about what to do on menopause with your employees.
Karen Quinn:
Well obviously we'd be happy to talk to any business that wants to take this further. I mean I think we'll be putting the link underneath the podcast later but it's ee.thisispurpose.com. We'll be running a series of events. One sort of introducing what the menopause is, the stats, the symptoms, what it's all about. Second one on employers' responsibilities because there are some legal responsibilities in this area. And the third one looking at management, the role of management in this, how to start the conversations, how to help people that are looking for help. but it will all be bespoke, every organisation is going to be different and a different length of time down their journey. But I think the action plan is something that is quite crucial and it will be a good thing to show to employees whether they're in their 20s or 30s and the menopause seems to be a long way away, or people that are going through it at the time. But that's one of the first steps I think that we would recommend.
Rt Hon Justine Greening:
So make a start, do something, and don't worry necessarily about not having the full strategy in your head. You know, that can come in time, but definitely get in touch and start thinking about what action you can take. I think that's a really good place to finish, Karen. Thank you so much for the time. And also, I think putting this on our agenda. From a purpose coalition and social mobility perspective, I think it's badly needed. I think we can have some real impact engaging more employers on it. And so I think it's some real positive good that we can create. So thank you for doing the podcast.
Karen Quinn:
My pleasure Justine and pleasure as always to speak to you.
