Devolution, Housing, and Challenging By-Elections: The Friday Take Episode 5

In this episode of the Friday Take, hosts Matthew McPherson and Nick Forbes dive into a thought-provoking discussion on various topics shaping the political landscape. From dissecting the Northern Powerhouse Partnership and its perception in society to critically examining the housing crisis and the urgent need for planning system reforms, this podcast episode offers insightful analysis and engaging conversations.

Join Matthew and Nick as they share their experiences and successes in economic development, particularly in Newcastle, where Nick built thousands of new homes and prioritized council housing. They also provide a breakdown of recent by-elections, including surprising outcomes in Tamworth and Mid Bedfordshire, highlighting the changing dynamics of political support in traditionally Conservative leaning constituencies.

Delve into the fascinating world of Combined Authorities and metro mayors, exploring the potential for regional economic growth and the role of universities in driving local development. The hosts shed light on the importance of devolution and the need for a more equitable distribution of decision-making power.

Discover how political leadership can impact real change, as the podcast delves into the transformative leadership of Keir Starmer and the revitalization of the Labour Party under Keir's bold leadership. With expert interviews and insightful analysis, this episode not only explores current political events but also engages with the bigger picture of creating a more sustainable and inclusive future for all.

Tune in today to episode 5 for an informative, thought-provoking, and dynamic discussion on key political issues and their impact on our society. Don't miss out on gaining a deeper understanding of the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead!

Transcript

Matthew McPherson (00:02.038)

Well, good afternoon, Nick. Very good to see you, both of us in London today. How you been keeping in the last two weeks?

Nick (00:10.02)

just about recovered from the Labour Party Conference. It's one of those things that I think to get over it properly you need a decent holiday afterwards because it's so intense. But I still think that it was a really good conference for Labour, really well planned, lots of internal discipline, key messages clarified. We might want to talk a bit about how some of the missions that Keir's announced have changed through the conference season and

refocused. But I also think that, you know, often politics is about the coincidence of events and how that adds up to create momentum or decline for particular political parties. And there's no doubt about it that a fantastic conference followed by two pretty spectacular by-election wins has put Labour in a really commanding position again at the moment.

Matthew McPherson (01:05.41)

Well, just on conference, I did it twice, because I did both the Conservative and then the Labour Party conference. So I think I worked out, I spent about 10 out of 12 nights in my own bed at one point. So it was, well, some might say that. It was a very busy couple of weeks, but yes, I agree. There was a really upbeat...

Nick (01:20.332)

by being a student again.

Matthew McPherson (01:30.822)

atmosphere at the Labour Party Conference. And, you know, someone, someone who's not been to many of the Labour Party conferences before, I noticed a marked difference compared to this year, even compared to last year. And I've been told that, you know, back in the Corbyn days, it was very, very different indeed. But even just compared to one year ago, you could see there were there were fewer party members, was a lot more business. It was it had very much felt like a corporate conference in the way that the Conservative Conference normally does, to be honest.

But it felt very, very different.

Nick (02:03.232)

I think it showed that Labour is preparing seriously for government and wants to be seen as a serious government in waiting. And the fact that businesses are flocking to Labour and we're finding this with some of our purpose work that there's a real interest in what Labour's thinking is on a whole range of policy areas. Some of which is

already out there, quite a lot of it isn't, and I think it's going to be a crucial time over the next six months for Labour to really develop the detail of some of its key manifesto pledges. And we've seen that in the refocusing of some of the missions, for example. So the fastest growing economy in the G7 is now very specifically focused on homes. You can see the political objective for that. But the challenge that I've...

Matthew McPherson (02:54.12)

Why do you think they've done that? What's the... is it a watering down of the missions or is it is it a refocusing?

Nick (03:01.542)

Well, I think it's tapped into a real sense that this is a country currently, but opportunity isn't available to everybody. And getting on the housing ladder and having your own property that you can come home to and feel safe and secure at the end of the day is very much part of the British expectation about life.

and the fact that so many people are now just priced out of the system and there's such a shortage of new homes for the size of the population we have. I think traditionally politicians have tended to say that there's an issue but then shy away from some of the solutions when it comes to potential reform of the planning system. Keir has just gone straight in there and said we're going to reform it and I'm sorry but the greater good of the country in terms of increasing house building.

outweighs local opposition. And I think that's a really interesting place for Labour to have got to on this agenda. And the other thing, of course, about house building is we shouldn't forget it's not just about land availability, it's also about materials, which brings into question supply chains, and it's also about the labour market and having the right skills and the right skilled people to build houses, which cause it to question the skills system.

both of which were big picture questions that we were debating at conference in the many sessions that we did.

Matthew McPherson (04:28.562)

On house building briefly, as someone who grew up in Newcastle, you could argue that Keir Starmer has taken a Nick Forbes approach to house building in terms of getting supply to the people that need that, into the areas that need them the most.

Nick (04:45.216)

Well, I mean, one of the things I was very proud of when I led Newcastle was that we consistently in my time built 2000 homes a year or more in some years, and on average 400 council houses a year, which, you know, there were more council houses built in my decade as leader in Newcastle than the previous four decades combined. And we shouldn't forget that while the focus of

recent political debate around housing has been on, understandably, on first entrance to the housing market, first step on the housing ladder, what's the affordability of your first property. The social and council housing sector in the country plays a hugely important role in giving people stability and lower rental charges for households with greater financial stress. And that's

It's...

One of the things I was struck by is how the tone for both of those sectors of the current government has tended to be quite negative, whereas I think Labour will take a really quite different approach.

Matthew McPherson (06:04.606)

And did you think it's a, some have argued that what Keir did on housing was a bit politically reckless. Where do you sit on that?

Nick (06:16.288)

Well, I mean, Keir can be accused of a number of things. I'm not sure political recklessness is one of them. And I think, do you know, I heard, I had a really interesting interview by Peter Cowell, the Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, who also was the Labour coordinator for the mid-Bedfordshire by-election. And he made a really interesting point. He said, people are talking about housing on the doorstep all the time. It's one of the top three issues consistently.

that people are raising, alongside cost of living and being able to access a GP. But he said, they're not talking about it in the way that political parties are telling them are the issues. So it's not a sort of anti-housing development agenda. And it's not how it's coming across in the national debate around housing. It's more about a sophisticated conversation about what do we need to make our communities sustainable for the longer term?

both in terms of housing and wider facilities. It was a really interesting interview and observation that the electorate is often more sophisticated than politicians give them the credit for.

Matthew McPherson (07:29.918)

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. Should we talk about these by-elections in a bit of detail then? Two by-elections on Thursday night. I did laugh at Keir Starmer's joke that he's now hosting a weekly press conference to welcome new Labour MPs to parliament, but perhaps, well, we come onto that shortly. I think we'll be seeing some activity in different parts of the country soon. But...

Nick (07:36.446)

What?

Nick (07:45.924)

And he's going to be holding a few more of those, I suspect.

Matthew McPherson (07:56.854)

was two by elections, Tamworth, obviously a seat that the Labour Party previously held in between 1997 or 1996, I should say, and 2010, but a seat that has really rapidly shifted against the party in the last couple of years, and it had a 19,000 conservative majority rapidly overturned by

Sarah Edwards, the Labour candidate there. And then, of course, perhaps the more significant of the two, though, or the maximum, the more unexpected was mid Bedfordshire, which a lot of people thought because of Labour and the Liberal Democrats both targeting the seat that the Conservatives would slip through. I think most people on either side would say that the Conservatives had a very good candidate in mid Bedfordshire. And I actually saw a nice little anecdote saying that the

Labour candidate the new Labour MP in Mid-Bedfordshire, Alistair Strathan, and his defeated conservative opponent were having a drink on the terrace in the House of Commons the other night, perhaps a nicer side to politics. But again, Labour wins Mid-Bedfordshire by about 1500 votes. And that is a really significant result, isn't it?

Nick (09:07.78)

Well, they're both significant, I think, for slightly different reasons. So if we look at Tamworth first, and I think that in 1996, one of the last by-elections of that parliament, which, where Labour won a pretty handsome majority in a seat was East Staffordshire, which is more or less the current Tamworth parliamentary constituency, I think. So it's interesting that there's a sort of

shadow from history cast upon recent week's events. I think so Tamworth is what in many ways you could describe as a red wall seat, not one of those that came to the Conservatives in the 2019 election, but one which over the last decade or so as you said has sort of become gradually more conservative voting, heavy leave voting constituency I think 66% in the EU referendum.

former, Labour, now Conservative, all sorts of issues on the ground around dissatisfaction with cost of living, housing, health services, etc. And so in a way, you'd expect Labour to be making headway into the sort of broadening the red wall type seats, because if you can't make headway into those seats that it lost in 2019 and in the previous decade, then frankly, it's not really in with a chance.

So I think Tamworth was a good result. Mid-Bedfordshire was a really significant result because the tradition, particularly in rural areas and Mid-Bedfordshire, I mean, I happen to know a bit about it because when I was vice chair of the LGA, the chair of the LGA, James Jamison, was the leader of Mid-Bedfordshire council. So I, you know, I,

Nick (11:06.08)

often we would often chat about similarities and differences between our respective councils and respective areas and it's one of those slightly odd constituencies that doesn't really have a centre to it it's a big collection of fields, small towns and villages and it's the kind of constituency that previously the Lib Dems would have made significant headway in and in fact up until recently though that's the type of constituency that they were winning in by-elections.

Lib Dems fought tooth and nail to win it and were beaten by Labour into third place I think, I think is actually probably the most significant thing out of the two by-elections because it shows that people aren't just working out who to vote for to get rid of a Conservative, they're actively choosing to support Labour above other options and I think that in itself is really indicative. And then the other point that

Nick (12:07.82)

There's been a lot made about turnout and well this is just conservative voters staying at home and they'll come out again at a new election. 44% turnout in a by-election is actually quite good turnout and that's higher than most council elections on normal cycles. But the point that

Matthew McPherson (12:14.25)

I mean, it was a by-election. I mean, this is not a dissimilar turnout to where we see any, you know, anywhere.

Nick (12:36.812)

It might on paper look as though a lot of conservative voters stayed at home, but actually it's indicative of a wider pattern of people choosing to not vote conservative, which we last saw in the 1990s, a string of by-elections that the conservative lost by ever increasing amounts and ending in the election of the Tony Blair government. And I think there's almost a direct comparison there.

Matthew McPherson (13:08.042)

And the thing is, this is now consistent. You have one blip in Uxbridge, but bar that big swings to Labour, big swings to Liberal Democrats right across the country, you know, you look, this follows Selby, of course, as well, back in July. It's just, you know, an extraordinary result. I would put it sort of on par with mid-Bedfordshire really.

Nick (13:32.004)

And actually, you know, a few years ago, you know, when the Liberal Party felt like it was pretty intent on tearing itself apart, I and a number of others were seriously worried that the party was in an existential crisis and might not come through as a single party. The fact that not only has it come through, but it's now in such a commanding position, I think is a tribute to Keir's leadership and bravery.

in making quite a lot of changes within the party, some of which have been reported because there's been loud protests against them from some sections of the party, quite a lot of them haven't and the sort of quiet professionalisation of bits of the party machinery and being really careful to be seen to be answering the questions and concerns that ordinary people are raising so that politics feels like it has value and meaning again, I think is

credibility work for labour that shouldn't be underestimated in terms of its power.

Matthew McPherson (14:37.91)

course, we've had quite a lot of by-elections this year, and we're probably not done yet. There are...

Nick (14:45.205)

It is straightforward in this Parliament, do you think? Because I can't remember. By-elections used to be a pretty rare thing. Basically, just when they'd died.

Matthew McPherson (14:53.794)

Well, one of the interesting, well, I was just about to say this. One of the interesting things is that MPs, just because MPs are younger in particular, is that we don't generally have so many by-elections where MPs have died now. You know, even you think back to the 2010 parliament, there was several MPs that died, and that thankfully is rarer now. But...

There does seem to have been an awful lot of by-elections recently. And of course, part of it is because of this recall petition system that was put in a couple of years ago and has, you know, triggered, you know, quite a lot of the recent by-elections, uh, you know, right across the country. And I think we might be getting two more potentially in.

depending on the outcome of recall petitions, potentially in Blackpool South, which is a seat that Labour absolutely should win. And also in Wellingborough, again, not dissimilar to Tamworth, a seat that Labour held from 1997 till 2005. And there's a recall petition starting there very soon and could easily lead to a by-election at the start of next year.

Nick (15:55.724)

I've said that the Wellingborough situation with the MP. It's one of the more bizarre stories that I've heard coming out of politics for a while. It's a very, very strange and somewhat disturbing set of things that are being described. And if anybody who's into this doesn't know what we're talking about, do have a look, but make sure you don't do it before breakfast because you're probably...

yourself off your cornflakes.

Nick (16:30.289)

The Blackpool South one, I know it. Do you think this is a case of an MP just getting on the wrong side of the lobbying rules because they're new and don't really know how the system works? Or do you think there's something more substantial to it than that?

Matthew McPherson (16:46.583)

My sense is that it's due to stupidity, but, you know, fundamentally, we elect our politicians and we expect them to have high standards and there has to be some kind of mechanism in place when those standards are broken. So, you know, we've seen the good job that Harriet Harman has been doing when she was interim chair of the

committee which looks at these things and she's just been re-elected this week as the permanent chair when Chris Bryant decided to step down and fundamentally there's a cross-party group of MPs who make these decisions, they're advised by senior lawyers, there has to be a system otherwise you end up with a complete free-for-all and I'm sure that you have similar systems in the council as well.

Nick (17:36.616)

Well, it's always struck me as odd that there wasn't a parallel system, particularly when, I remember when I first became council leader, we had a certain secretary of state for local government who insisted on a strengthening of the standards regime to root out bad practice and didn't understand why a number of us kind of asked the question, well, why aren't you doing this in parliament then?

And so it's always felt odd to me that there wasn't a sort of parallel system in parliament.

Nick (18:16.889)

I think people face sanctions for all sorts of reasons, don't they? And all sorts of misdemeanours. And I do wonder sometimes, and I think you and I have chatted about this before, whether there is real consistency and comparability to the various sanctions for various offences. Because it sometimes feels like some of the offences that people are punished for.

they get a much harsher sentence than others, for what you might say were slightly less serious offenses. It feels as though it's not quite settled down as a system yet.

Matthew McPherson (18:57.566)

It does seem that there needs to be a more consistent approach, you know, to people being suspended. And actually, it's one of the recommendations Chris Bryant made in his book, which I read over the summer, which was that there should be an ability, for example, for Parliament to suspend an MP for longer than 10 days.

without it triggering a recall petition. That becomes a very arbitrary thresholds that if it passes, you know, they might want to suspend someone for longer without triggering a recall petition, which almost certainly means, you know, has almost always been the case that somebody then loses their seat. So there's all sorts of, it clearly needs to be looked at, but you know, the broad principle is there needs to be some sort of system for rooting out this kind of behavior.

Nick (19:45.884)

The other rule that local government has that doesn't apply to Parliament is that if you don't, as a councillor, if you don't attend a council meeting, and that doesn't necessarily need to be a full council meeting, but it needs to be a meeting of a committee in the authority of which you are a member, if you don't attend anything for six months, you're automatically disqualified. And that would have dealt with the Nadine Dorries situation, because she was clearly

absent from parliament for quite a long time before she threatened to resign as in a fit of peak. And then I know and you know that kind of you know no involvement and of course you could have an exception to that so council could agree that if a councillor was ill you're seriously ill for example they could extend their term of office but it always struck me as odd that

Matthew McPherson (20:22.99)

but she hadn't voted for more than a year.

Nick (20:42.684)

the same thing doesn't apply to sitting MPs. And I do wonder whether part of the conservative party's woes, certainly in Mid Bedfordshire were because of the extraordinary actions of the former MP, which prompted one of those rare things, a joke from Rishi Sunak.

Matthew McPherson (21:00.226)

It's a good joke as well. I thought it was very funny.

Nick (21:01.772)

It was. Yes. Labour didn't really know how to react. It's like, did he just do that?

Matthew McPherson (21:09.142)

We should remind everyone what he said, which was he welcomed the new MPs to their place in the House of Commons and said, after all, I think the new member for Mid Bedfordshire will support me more than the last, which is probably true as well.

Nick (21:26.092)

It probably is, you know, she was in some respects the sort of Jeremy Corbyn of the Tory party, although Jeremy Corbyn actively voted against the Labour party rather than just didn't turn up. And there was, I mean I remember you know listening to the by-election campaign, you know various news reports in the media over the last over six weeks or so of the campaign, there was a lot of anger about her behaviour and her

what felt like contempt for her constituency, for the job that she was elected to do, and ultimately for the system, because basically she made it all about her.

Matthew McPherson (21:58.05)

Mm.

Matthew McPherson (22:06.15)

Yeah, that's absolutely right and it was it's clearly caused the conservative party a lot of problems um Should we move on?

Nick (22:12.557)

Yeah.

Well, we should probably mention some of the interesting developments in the North East, because although what we usually talk about is what's happening on the national scene and how we're working with purpose coalition members to strengthen the voice of progressive business leadership, we ignore what's happening in the regions that are peril, I think, and some interesting developments.

in the northeast, our home region, where from next May there'll be a new combined authority covering what we call in the northeast LA7, which is the five time we're authorities plus Northumberland and Durham. So it's geographically a big combined authority, interesting selection of candidates going on by the various parties.

Matthew McPherson (23:05.674)

And we've seen this weekend MP throw their hat into the ring for that domination on the conservative side.

Nick (23:11.5)

It's interesting isn't it that quite a lot of the people who've been elected as Metro mayors have previously served as members of parliament and there's an interesting direction of travel actually in terms of people's ambitions from parliament to the regional level and I've heard several of those Metro male figures like Andy Burnham for example say he could do a lot more as a mayor than he ever could do as a member of parliament. It's interesting about our politics and the other thing that's interesting of course is that

Matthew McPherson (23:38.655)

Yeah.

Nick (23:41.228)

It's a pretty unique opportunity with a new combined authority being created when we've got experience and learning from having done others. And of course, the Northeast has several iterations of this, shall we say. It feels like a really exciting time to be able to really properly bring together industry leaders, businesses, universities, civic leaders and the wider civic society, alongside political leaders in a

really joined up conversation about what the North East can really do to motor and drive creation of jobs and opportunities for more people. And I think that the North East is probably about the only region in the UK that is both the right size to do that and also has the sort of coherency in terms of identity to be able to do that. So I think that next year is actually going to be a very exciting time in the North East for all sorts of reasons.

Matthew McPherson (24:37.622)

What will the new combined authority, how would it be different to the previous one? Will it have more powers? Is it just a bigger geographical area? Is it will have more money to spend? What's the difference there?

Nick (24:49.172)

Well, so most combined authorities have a pretty similar set of functions devolved to them from government. So they started out with an infrastructure fund and transport, most of them have transport responsibilities and broader environmental, sorry, economic planning powers plus some specific powers that can be exercised around

compulsory purchase orders and development corporations, that kind of thing. So most of the functions that they started with were functions that government used to decide in Whitehall and devolved to the regions where there was the opportunity to do that. We've seen adult skills added to that list for most of the combined authorities. And that's been also a really interesting experience because most combined authorities are now finding a much more quality conversation around.

what are the lifetime skills that we need to think about planning for in this area. It might not necessarily be the same as an area in a different part of the country because the economy will be slightly different. So that's good. I think so then the other thing that's on the horizon is the potential for another wave of devolution deals that sort of add on more decision making to command authorities to strengthen their position.

and I think we'll increasingly see things like infrastructure procurement be done through a combined authority level. In the northeast we started out back in 2014 having a conversation about an LA7 combined authority, but those conversations fell apart and there was a lot of dare I say acrimony amongst the political leaders. A number of us pushed ahead and created the North of Tyne combined authority and that was never finished.

It was always about planting a flag in the ground to say, you know, we are determined to get the evolution into the region and No, here's the first stage of it and it's pretty quickly migrated to the old LA seven footprint again Which is a big area of big population big opportunities and of course big challenges ahead so Interesting times in the northeast and definitely one of the places to watch I think

Matthew McPherson (27:13.674)

And you've been thinking about some of this, some ideas around this and ways that organizations can work more closely together with Newcastle and Northumbria University, haven't you?

Nick (27:23.748)

Well, Newcastle and Northumbria universities both have a really strong history of working to support the local economy. So it's no coincidence that one of the grand buildings just by the central station in Newcastle is the Mining Institute. And the Mining Institute was established to create knowledge and learning around mining, because that's what the biggest industry in the Northeast was at the time.

And so universities are used to responding, but in policy terms and nationally at the moment, universities are often seen as the pinnacle of educational achievement, not as integral to the economy in a local area. But we're starting to see, in fact, just last week, we saw Leonardo big defense company investing specifically in the Northeast because Northumbria University

was able to provide the pipeline of talent that they need for their software business in new defense technologies. So you can see how having been through several decades of development, universities are now potentially really back at the center of economic thinking and economic planning. And that's a really interesting opportunity that the Newcastle Northumbria University really want to seize and drive.

And not just because it's important from an economic planning point of view, but because they have done a lot of work in terms of increasing opportunity and tackling representation in universities from people from a whole range of excluded backgrounds. If they could translate that learning into the economic sphere, that would be transformational in terms of how many opportunities there are in the economy and how fair it feels for people who sometimes struggle to get a job.

Matthew McPherson (29:21.874)

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, it's something we need to get. I mean, you know, both of us from the Northeast living used to live there. I don't. But we need to get to a situation where people.

Nick (29:21.944)

Let's do it six times.

Matthew McPherson (29:36.362)

You know, a lot of people move away from the Northeast to think about how can we make sure we can retain that talent and getting those big employers in like Leonardo and many others as well, working with the university, you know, working with organizations like the wise group who are fantastic social enterprise, who employ more than 100 people in the Northeast, doing a lot of work around relational mentoring, they do some very innovative work around supporting prison leavers, which I think is absolutely fantastic. But getting

to a situation where people feel like they don't need to leave, uh, where those jobs are there, where high quality jobs, you know, are there and that requires, you know, this, you know, actually look at Newcastle, Newcastle is a hub for that, but, uh, you know, the whole region can benefit parts of County Durham, for example, where access to bus services is very, very difficult parts of Northumberland, you've got the same issue. Um, you know, I remember going to Kielder once, uh, in Northumberland, right up by the Scottish border. And, uh, one of the people that told me there was a bus.

to Hexham, which is a fairly small market town, twice a week. And that was the extent of the public transport connections. You get on the bus, takes you there, you've got three hours, and don't miss the bus back or you'll have to wait three days.

Nick (30:48.952)

And when I was first elected as leader of council back in 2011, several people said to me, it's a poison chalice. And I think what they meant by that was really the job of politicians in the North East is to manage decline as humanely as possible. I refused to buy into that agenda. I refused to accept that the North East doesn't have a future. I refused to accept that it's better days are behind it rather than ahead of it. And

Matthew McPherson (31:09.663)

Yeah.

Nick (31:18.696)

I was driven along those lines, partly because of my own experiences growing up in the region in rural County Durham, where I qualified for free school meals, I wanted to go to university but my head of sixth form said that people from my kind of background didn't go to university, so what was the point? And in fact I actually left school and

and worked in McDonald's and Bishop Auckland for a year and decided I did want to go to university after that. So there is something about how the North East has kind of lacked ambition for quite a while and what we're now starting to see is a real turnaround in its fortunes and if we can get to a point where there's a critical mass then once again could be a genuine northern powerhouse. Although

Matthew McPherson (32:14.646)

Well, we.

Nick (32:15.12)

You're probably too young to remember that the Powerhouse was actually one of the two gay clubs in Newcastle. They had dark corners and sticky floors.

Matthew McPherson (32:23.922)

Well, I've been very used to hearing them from some Northern powerhouse from all of George Osborne's work, but certainly a different take on it.

Nick (32:30.636)

Well, maybe he liked to spend his weekends there, who knows?

Matthew McPherson (32:37.007)

That is one for one to think about Well with what is work with Henry Murison who actually has been a very big supporter of the coalition and I know Was your deputy in Newcastle as well for a little while as well wasn't he sorry apologies

Nick (32:40.813)

or perhaps not.

Nick (32:56.552)

He wasn't my deputy, he was one of my cabinet members. And I mean, Henry is a dynamo and did an absolutely incredible job in Newcastle and is now doing a really, really important job with the Northern Powerhouse Partnership, which is language that's gone out of vogue a bit, I think. And part of me...

Matthew McPherson (33:14.327)

Yeah.

Nick (33:23.924)

almost regret that it was a phrase that George Osborne came up with rather than a Labour politician, because I suspect if it's been a Labour politician it would have had a lot more regional buy-in. It's often seen as a bit of a slightly suspicious concept and often you know people think of it as a slogan looking for some reality. But yeah well you know well yes but

Matthew McPherson (33:45.812)

slogan.

slogan of even votes maybe.

Nick (33:53.844)

If you sort of look at it objectively, if there's an intention and if government would like to grow the UK economy and tackle inequalities, then the Northeast and the North more broadly is the best place to invest because you get more economic return for the level of public investment that you make. And I remember a conversation about

economic development with a Conservative council leader a few years back. And the Conservative council leader in the South, their issue was economic development was how to slow it down and how to stop it because it was creating all sorts of issues with congestion and house prices and so on. And my issue with economic development was how do we get more of it? Because we need to create jobs, we need to keep people in the region and we need to keep talent. And so actually it's very interesting. That was a really

good example, I think, of how we have such inequalities and radically different approaches, depending on where you are in the country.

Matthew McPherson (35:01.63)

Yeah, absolutely. And every, you know, it's the important of local, it's the importance of local councils because every single area has its own challenges and unique situation. Even comparing say Newcastle and Northumberland are totally different challenges that they have or Newcastle and Durham, you know, very, very different, different challenges. And it's, it's really important that, you know, organized and you can see that in the way that organizations like the ones that we work with, you know, adjust their offer and, uh,

Nick (35:19.587)

Yes.

Matthew McPherson (35:29.226)

you know, change the way that things work depending on the type of area where they're trying to deliver services.

Nick (35:36.772)

And of course, one of the things that people often say about the Northeast councils is that they've tended to see themselves in isolation rather than as a collective. And it was certainly my experience in my early days of combined authority conversations that they seemed or felt as though there was a bit of an anti-Newcastle agenda. But you're not going to have a successful region without a successful city and you're not going to have a successful city without a successful region. You know, the two go hand in hand. So saying it's one or the other is a complete mistake.

And I think some of the opportunities in the North East, some of the interest that's being shown in the North East, is really interesting and exciting. And it is very definitely, I think, one of those places to look out for in the future.

Matthew McPherson (36:29.262)

Nick, I've only got just this is not going to be honest, but I've just marked it there. I've only got until quarter past. So I think should we? Yeah. Should we? Oh, right. Yeah, let's just finish it. Finish it. Because I think it was a really good discussion, actually, and probably one of our better policy ones. So let's wrap it up here and then we can do the other bit next week. Well, Nick.

Nick (36:36.796)

Well, I've got marks, so market three. So shall we draw this to?

Matthew McPherson (36:56.898)

fascinating conversation. Lots to talk about in terms of the by-elections. I guess we'll be looking out closely to see what happens in Wellingborough and what happens in Blackpool South. But you know, really good to talk about the work in Newcastle as well and all of your experience from the council as well. So, you know, very good to chat.

Nick (37:17.932)

Well, and you know, the one thing I forgot to mention in the conversation earlier, earlier this week, Ed Balls published some research that he'd been doing. And in fact, there's a link with the Purpose Coalition, because I didn't realize until I read the list, that both myself and Justine Greening had been interviewed for this particular bit of research. So, interestingly, Ed Balls

Matthew McPherson (37:35.156)

links.

Nick (37:46.092)

makes a very similar analysis to that of Gordon Brown that the UK's economy is held back because of centralisation and there needs to be a real reinvention and vision about the devolution agenda. So for those people that think that devolution is just something that's in one political party's mind and not another's, they're wrong. And for those that think that any future government, in particular Labour government, isn't going to be as committed to devolution as they sound now, I think also

that's a misinterpretation because I think there's now a really clear, not just direction of travel politically, but strong evidence base about why this is important. So I guess the learning point here, Matthew, is as well as talking about national politics, we should also try and do a bit of a regional roundup when our Metro mayors and combined authorities have made interesting and significant announcements.

Matthew McPherson (38:36.342)

I think that seems like a very good idea. And there's some fantastic work going on with metro mayors In fact, one of the things very quickly before we go, I am fascinated about how popular Andy Burnham has managed to make himself within the business and sort of corporate community in Manchester. Goes, you know, I have lots of friends there, Tory leading friends who've moved there and might not vote Labour, but would vote for Andy Burnham.

And I do think that is remarkable and just show, you know, the power that a Metro mayor can have, particularly a high profile one, you would probably start to see that in other parts of the country as well.

Nick (39:10.908)

Absolutely. And who knows, it's creating a whole load of political figures that aren't in Parliament, but are influential and important and interesting cohort people to engage with for the future. Politics just gets more complex.

Matthew McPherson (39:27.999)

Absolutely. Well, we'll leave it there and I look forward to chatting again soon. See you next week.

Nick (39:31.513)

See you next week.